Testimony of Arthur William Watherwax

is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Watherwax, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his operations and his movements when you saw him and so forth.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but such rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive this 3-day notice if he so wishes, and I think that letter addressed to you is dated June 22. When did you get it?
Mr. WATHERWAX. June 23.

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Mr. HUBERT. Today is the 26th. Now, probably you have had the 3-day written notice, but in any case, if it should be short by I day, since the rules do provide that you can waive it, you said you are willing to waive that notice?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, will you stand and raise your right hand so I may administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; so help you God?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Arthur William Watherwax.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?
Mr. WATHERWAX. At 9302 Piper Lane.
Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?
Mr. WATHERWAX. In Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Forty-two.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment?
Mr. WATHERWAX. A printer.
Mr. HUBERT. With what organization?
Mr. WATHERWAX. The Dallas Times Her n by the name of Jack Ruby?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I guess--maybe several years.
Mr. HUBERT. In what way did you come to know him?
Mr. WATHERWAX. His coming up to the composing room with his ads.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him in any other way?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know him socially?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No
Mr. HUBERT. Or as a friend?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You are in the composing room of the Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. WATHERWAX. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that it's customary for the customers who run ads to consult with you as to the format?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; he's the only customer I have ever seen up there.
Mr. HUBERT.. But he did come and it was his custom to come up?
Mr. WATHERWAX. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. It was his custom to come and talk to you or others about the
composition of his ad?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He usually talked to the foreman but he usually mingled with the men.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the foreman?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Clyde Gaydosch was the foreman for that shift.
Mr. HUBERT. What shift are you talking about?
Mr. WATHERWAX. The 12 o'clock at night until 7:30 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that when he usually consulted with you?

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Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he usually came up there, after his club was closed usually around 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. He would consult with you about the ad which appeared in the evening edition?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; the following day.
Mr. HUBERT. When did it go to press?
Mr. WATHERWAX. It would go to press about 9 o'clock in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. What's the deadline?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I think it would be out on the streets about 11 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean what's the deadline for changing the ad and so forth?
Mr. WEATHERWAX. Well, I think some time at night, but he kept wandering in and his ad was so small.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to see him quite often?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Quite a bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having seen him on the morning after the President was shot, that is to say, on the early morning of November 23?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Saturday morning?
Mr. HUBERT. Saturday morning; that is correct?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he was up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty as usual?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was your 12 to 7:30 shift?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him before on that day, that is to say, on the 23d?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen him on the 22d at all?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time prior to that that you had seen him that you recall?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I don't even recall, and I may have seen him and I may not have even taken note of him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a distinct recollection of having seen him on the night or the morning after the President was shot?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes; I remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he there for?
Mr. WATHERWAX. To change his ad. He changed it to "The Carousel Club will be closed for Saturday, Sunday, and Monday," I think.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the ad had been placed or was it a continuously running ad?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; continuously--more or less.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come in person or did he telephone?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He came in person.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he telephone at all?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He frequently did, but he didn't that day.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay with you?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He was up there, I would say, at least 30 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Talking with you or with others?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, it was with myself and others.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the others?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Roy Pryor--he was an old friend of his, and the foreman, and myself.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the foreman's name?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Clyde Gaydosch.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he still there?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that Ruby first came, do you remember?
Mr. WATHERWAX. It was about 5 minutes after 4.
Mr. HUBERT. That's quite a time that you have named. Therefore, I would like you to state why you are able to fix it as closely as you do?
Mr. WATHERWAX. We eat lunch from 3:30 until 4, and right after lunch I usually go back to the restroom and wash my hands, and just as I was walking to the restroom, he came off of the elevator.

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Mr. HUBERT. So you are able to pinpoint the time because it was at the very end of your lunch hour, which invariably, I take it, is from 3:30 to 4?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you fix it as shortly thereafter, or about 5 minutes after?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does the elevator come from ?
Mr. WATHERWAX. The first floor---up.
Mr. HUBERT. It's open to the public?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; but there are a couple of nightwatchmen down there that check them in.
Mr. HUBERT. You say he stayed about 30 minutes, which would make it somewhere after 4:30 when he left. Did he stay and talk with you all that while or with others, including you?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He started talking to me and I believe Roy Pryor came up and he talked to him also.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the primary purpose of his visit, as I understand, was to change his ad, and he told you how to do it?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He discussed it with me, you know, he was always asking somebody's opinion on something.
Mr. HUBERT. He discussed it with you as to the composition, you mean?
Mr. WATERWAX. As to whether it would be timely.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean whether it would be a proper thing to do?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; appropriate---if I thought it would be a good idea.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was seeking your advice as well as others as to whether it was a good idea to close the club, aside from. consulting you as to the composition of the ad, once that decision was made?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be in some doubt as to whether he would close the club?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He said he was going to try and get the other owners to join him and they would all close.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the decision, as I understand, was ultimately made to close?
Mr. WATHERWAX. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And therefore the ad was changed?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about the assassination of the President?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes; he was pretty shaken up about it. I guess everybody was.
Mr. HUBERT. But did he seem to be more shaken up than the average person?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I would say he was more excited about the interview that he had just left evidently. He had been up at the police station for an interview with Oswald and with Henry Wade.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you about that?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression now that he was more excited about the fact that he had been present at this interview than he was about anything else?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be grieving, particularly?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No. He thought it was a terrible thing. He mentioned
that he had corrected Wade on, I think Henry Wade made a mistake about those two Cuban organizations and Ruby straightened him out. One was called "Freedom for Fair Play for Cuba", and I forget the Other one what the name of it was.
Mr. HUBERT. He mentioned to you that Wade had made a mistake concerning those two organizations and that he lind cleared it up?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes,
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when and where he had cleared it up?
Mr. WATHERWAX. At the interview.
Mr. HUBERT. At what interview?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Evidently he spoke up and told him that he was wrong.

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Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention anything about the Weissman ad that had appeared in the Dallas Morning News?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us about that, sir?
Mr. WATHERWAX. The best I recall, I think he said that it had been traced back to General Walker, and that it had been placed in there to make the Jews look bad.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, his comment about the Weissman ad was that he knew or thought that it had been traced back to General Walker?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that the purpose was to make the Jews look bad?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he elaborate on his expression of how the Jews would be involved or made to look involved in the matter?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; except that he thought that that name Weissman was
evidently Jewish, and that he thought it was a plan that would make the Jews look bad, that it would really reflect on the Jews.
Mr. HUBERT. From your general knowledge of him, was he sensitive to the fact that he was a Jew?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I had never noticed it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be on this particular occasion?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Just in reference to that ad--I was sort of surprised when he mentioned it, because I didn't know that he felt like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem angry or mad or outraged about this ad?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Just that he was concerned that the ad might associate the Jews with the ad?
Mr. WATHERWAX. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that--he didn't like?
Mr. WATHERWAX. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say Whether he didn't like it because it would hurt his
business, or did he say what was the reason why he didn't like it?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He didn't say.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever mention the John Birch Society?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the John Birch Society is?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't say anything about that that night?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He never discussed politics as far as I know--I didn't even
know he was interested.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about Oswald himself?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he said he had seen Oswald up there at the interview and he said he looked like a little weasel--he had a smirk on his face.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything that indicated that he intended to take any
action with respect to him?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment about a fear that the assassination of President Kennedy might somehow be blamed on the Jews in America or elsewhere?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. The only reference he made to the Jews then, was in connection with the Weissman ad.
Mr. WATHERWAX (no response).
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate in any way that he thought that Oswald might be involved with some other group?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don't think he did. I think he was worried about his business.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, primarily he was a businessman and he catered to tourists. That was his main source of income and I think everybody was sort of worried about business in Dallas after the assassination.

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Mr. HUBERT. Is that your analysis of it or did he say anything that night to indicate that he was concerned about his business?
Mr. WATHERWAX. We discussed it--that. You see; I drive a cab part time. That's one reason why he's sort of cultivated my friendship because he was always after me to bring him customers, and we discussed how it would hurt Dallas for conventions more than anything else, because that was his main source of income and also for cabdrivers.
Mr. HUBERT. You drove a cab every day?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, no; maybe for a weekend or maybe 2 or 3 days a month.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive a cab on the same day you would go to work?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; it was always on my off days.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was at night?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; night.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you sometimes bring people to his club?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; but never by my own volition.
Mr. HUBERT. They asked you to do so?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you didn't solicit for the club?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Oh, no; no.
Mr. HUBERT. When you did bring somebody there, did he compensate you in any way?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He offered to; if I would come upstairs, he would give me a half a dollar a person, but it wasn't worth n to him?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; he was worried about it. Like I said, primarily he was a businessman. I have often thought that--they said that he mingled with police, he was a glad-hander but he was his own public-relations man and that was all part of the business with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to his club on a social basis?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; I took my wife up there once.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that?
Mr. WATHERWAX. That was the only time once.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you've known him about 7 or 8 years?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; Just several years, I would say--maybe longer than that 4 or 5 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to the time he organized and opened the Sovereign Club?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him when he owned the Vegas Club alone?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. It was only when he opened the Carousel?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. These ads that he ran were for both clubs or just one?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He ran two separate ads. Usually the Carousel was the main ad. The Vegas Club was just a little one a continuous ad. I think his main interest was the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say you went to his club, you mean the Carousel?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. You've never been to the Vegas?
Mr. WATHERWAX.
Mr. HUBERT. When he left at appproximately 4:30 or shortly thereafter, did he make any kind of parting comment of significance?
Mr. WATHE THERWAX. Yes; everybody was laughing. You would twist, you would almost have to.
Mr. HUBERT. You said it was one of the female proofreaders who got on it, and was he laughing and joking about it as well?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then he went off, and have you seen him since?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any communication with him during the rest of the 23d or the 24th?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that Roy Pryor was there that night too?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Roy Pryor; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby ever mention to you in the course of the years that you knew him--any friends that he had in the underworld--mobster group?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he sort of a name dropper?
Mr.WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention people that he thought were important that he had met?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I never noticed it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever say anything to you to indicate what his relationship with the police was?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know from your own knowledge what his relationship with the police was?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don't--no. The only time that I ever had anything like tint, was sitting in my cab in front of the University Club, waiting for a passenger .that was upstairs and a couple of conventioners came along and offered me a drink and asked me where all the action was and everything, and it was already closing hours. It was after closing hours and to get rid of them I sent them down to the Carousel. I knew that he was open until 3 o'clock in the morning or 2 o'clock, and I didn't know, but they were vice squad men, so Ruby got a big laugh out of it--here he says---"I ask you for customers here and you're sending me down vice squad men."
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, these people who appeared to be conventioners and drunks were in fact vice squad men and masquerading as such?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't drive them there but you just told them about it?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Later you say Ruby laughed and Joked with you about it?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't angry about it?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He apparently got into no trouble as a result of it?
Mr. WATHERWAX. I think they sort of considered him as a joke, I guess, more than anything else. I think everybody sort of--they didn't pay him much attention.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, evidentl casually.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe anything about him which would throw light on his character in the sense of whether he had a hot temper or not?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Well, I have taken some of his strippers home in the cab,
and the few that I had, said that he had a reputation of that.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; they said he would hire and fire and hire and fire, you know, so evidently he had a pretty quick temper.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you gathered from the strippers that you had occasion to have as fares?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. From the Carousel to their home?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They expressed that view to you or talking among themselves?
Mr. WATHERWAX. To me---I only had them as singles. I didn't ride the group.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they indicate that he made any sexual advances toward them?
Mr. WATHERWAX. One of them told me that that was one of the reasons there was such a big turnover, that that was part of the job---that when they were hired, that was part of the job---almost understood to be part of the job.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that they would have to have sexual intercourse with him?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; that's what she said.
Mr. HUBERT. One woman told you that?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes; she said that if you didn't, he would fire you.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know who that was, do you?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No; I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Its been about a year and a half. I know I was sorta surprised because he never appeared to be that type to me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he appear to be a normal type man sexually to you or did you ever notice any traits which you considered homosexual?
Mr. WATHERWAX. He just never talked about it.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't consider that he was homosexual?
Mr. WATHERWAX. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that's all, sir. Now, Mr. Watherwax, have you anything further you wish to add that might throw any light on this?
Mr. WATHERWAX. That's about all I can say.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't think there has been any conversation between us except that which has been recorded here, because if there is, we are supposed to develop it, but as a matter of fact, except for introducing myself as you walked into the room, all of our conversation has been recorded?
Mr. WATHERWAX. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir, very much, and I appreciate your coming down.
Mr. WATHERWAX. You're welcome.