Testimony Of Forrest V. Sorrels

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels, my name is Leon Hubert. I will be taking your deposition this afternoon, and so will Mr. Samuel Stern. We are both members of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission, that is to say.
Mr. RANKIN. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, both Mr. Stern and I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Sorrels. Of course you will take an oath a little later on. Is it understood between us that this statement of my authority and of Mr. Stern's authority is sufficient to carry for both depositions--in other words, it will be really a continuation of the deposition by Mr. Stern on another area. Is that understood?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it understood also that the oath you are going to take will be applicable to the testimony elicited from you by me, as well as that elicited from you by Mr. Stern?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Sorrels, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and other pertinent facts which you may know about the general inquiry.
Mr. Sorrels, you have appeared today by virtue of a verbal request made by us at the direction of the General 0ounsel. Under the rules adopted by the Cornmission, all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition. But the rules also provide that a witness may waive this notice. I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day written notice provided for by the rules of the Commission.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then I will ask you to stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. SORRELS. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name.
Mr. SORRELS. Forrest V. Sorrels.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr. SORRELS. Sixty-three.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside now?
Mr. SORRELS. 3319 Hanover, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. SORRELS. Special agent in charge of the Dallas district of the United States Secret Service.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, before I go any further, I should like the record to show that Mr. Fred B. Smith----
Mr. SMITH. Deputy General Counsel, United States Treasury Department.
Mr. HUBERT. Is present--in what capacity?
Mr. SMITH. I guess observer on behalf of the Secretary of Treasury.
Mr. HUBERT. And Mr. Burr Griffin, also a member of the staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission, is also present.
Now, Mr. Sorrels, I would like for you to state to us the general background, your history, sort of a biographical sketch, if you will, starting off with your education and on to date.
Mr. SORRELS. I was born in Red River County, Tex., on a farm, September 16, 1901; later moved to a little town nearby called Bogata, Tex. I lived there until 1916, when my family moved to E1 Paso, Tex. I resided there until 1935.
I went to E1 Paso High School and after graduation attended Draughon's Business College, taking typing and shorthand and bookkeeping. I then went to work for a small wholesale grocery, worked there for only a short time, and then went to work for a brick company, worked there a very short time, and then obtained employment as a clerk in the office of Bureau of Narcotics, Treasury Department, in E1 Paso, Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. What year was that, sir?
Mr. SORRELS. That was in 1922. I worked there for about a year and went back to the brick company. I was only there a short time when I learned of a clerical position in the office of the United States Secret Service at E1 Paso. I later was employed in that position on July 6, 1923. That was a two-man office, and I began very shortly after employment there assisting and helping in investigative-work.
In 1926, the special agent in charge was transferred from there, and prior to that time I had been appointed as what was known at that time as an operative, which is comparable to our special agent of today. He transferred from there to Dallas about July of 1926, and I was left as acting agent in charge of that office. In October that "acting" was removed, and I continued there in the capacity of agent in charge until 1935, when I was transferred to Dallas as special agent in charge there. In 1936 I was transferred to New Orleans as acting supervising agent of a newly created setup whereby the States of Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi were in what was known at that time as the Tenth District.
In 1938, the headquarters office was moved from New Orleans to Houston. In 1941 it was moved from Houston to Dallas. Subsequent to that time, the organization of the 15 supervising agents was abandoned, and each office reported direct into the headquarters office in Washington, excepting a very few that were known as resident agency officers.
I have continued in that capacity as special agent in charge of the Dallas district, and am so employed at the present time.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you have been special agent in charge actually of the Dallas district since 1938.
Mr. SORRELS. Actually--it was in my territory since 1935, but the office was moved back there in 1941, and I have been there ever since.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have lived there.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What does the Dallas territory now, under your jurisdiction, and control, consist of?
Mr. SORRELS. Roughly it consists of the northern half of Texas, exclusive of the territory west of the Pecos River. We have in the Dallas district the entire northern judicial district of Texas, the Waco division of the western district of Texas, the Tyler, Jefferson, Texarkana, Parris, and Sherman divisions of the eastern district of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. By divisions, you mean divisions in the United States court system?
Mr. SORRELS. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. How many men do you have?
Mr. SORRELS. At the present time we have six special agents besides myself.
Mr. HUBERT. They all work out of Dallas?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir. One special agent actually headquarters, so to speak, in Fort Worth. He remains in that section most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us something about your family.
Mr. SORRELS. I am married.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been married?
Mr. SORRELS. I have a daughter 16 years of age and a younger daughter 7 years of age. I have 2 children by a former marriage, a son who is a captain in the United States Army and a daughter who is married to an employee of the IBM Company in New York City.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been married to your present wife?
Mr. SORRELS. Since 1946.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels, Mr. Stern is going to take a deposition with respect to security measures and other matters, I think, in regard to the President. I am going to depose you with reference to a number of matters concerning principally the security of Oswald after he was arrested and until his death, and your activities with reference to Ruby after he had shot Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, getting into the first matter, can you tell us what you observed yourself of the security measures which were in effect and actually operating with reference to Oswald after his arrest.
Mr. SORRELS. The first time that I saw Oswald was on the afternoon of November 22 as he was coming out of Capt. Will Fritz' office in the Dallas Police Department on the third floor.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. SORRELS. The exact time I cannot give you, because I had been working at a frantic pace. It was some time probably past the middle of the afternoon. I had previously been informed by my office that Captain Fritz had endeavored to locate me because he had a suspect in custody. And when I arrived there, Captain Fritz was in his office, apparently talking to the suspect, whom I determined to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
As he was being removed from the office, I told Captain Fritz that I would like to talk to this man when an opportunity was afforded, and he remarked "You can talk to him right now--just go right around the corner there by the side of the office," which I did.
Oswald was brought around and was seated there. There were a number of other officers present, detectives, I think possibly some FBI agents, and maybe some of my agents had come in in the meantime.
I started to----
Mr. HUBERT. Before you go into that, would you tell us about the security measures that you observed with reference to protecting the person of Oswald from the time you first saw him, say up until the time you have reached now.
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know, there was no one except authorized officers in that particular area at that time. I did not see anyone that I recognized to be other than an officer.
Mr. HUBERT. No news people in the corridor of the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. I am talking about inside the office now. In the corridor, that was an entirely different situation because there were cameras set up, tripods, still photographers, photographers with cameras in their hands, and newspapermen in large numbers in the hallways.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, for example, when Captain Fritz afforded you an opportunity to speak to Oswald and indicated that you could do so at a little office around the corner, did that mean that you had to pass Oswald out of Fritz' office, and through this third floor corridor, where all the newsmen were gathered?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That was still within Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; in other words, there was an office there, and Captain Fritz had an office built within that office just merely to take him out of the door and right around the corner of his inside office there.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you did interview Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. I talked to him, started asking him questions, and he was belligerent and arrogant in his attitude and he said to me, "I don't know who you fellows are, a bunch of cops."
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to him
Mr. SORRELS. Not very long.
Mr. HUBERT. In point of time.
Mr. SORRELS. Not over--I don't think over 10 minutes at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what happened to him after that?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know, he was taken back to the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, taking him back to the jail would involve passing him out of Fritz' office, through the corridor, and to the jail elevator, is that correct?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what security precautions you observed with reference to his person after he was out of Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. They of course had him handcuffed when they removed him, and several detectives accompanied him as they left out, in front--someone went ahead. And as I recall it there was at least one on the side, and then some brought up the rear.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go up to the jail?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any system of identification of the people who were on the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, when I first went down there I had no particular difficulty getting in, because most of the officers there know me, from my years of being in that city. But subsequent to that time I would have to identify myself many times. This was to uniformed police officers that were on duty. And I would have to show my commission book in order to get into Captain Fritz' office, or else get into the executive offices there, where the chief of police and the deputy chief offices were located.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any officers posted at the entrances to the area, to the third floor area?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were they?
Mr. SORRELS. By the elevator, and then there were uniformed officers at Captain Fritz' door.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe them requiring identification by other persons? I mean you described how they required you to identify yourself. Did you notice whether they did so with other people, and if so, what did they do?
Mr. SORRELS. I cannot say that I did, because usually when I get through identifying myself, I either went to the executive suite, where the chief's office was, or right direct to Captain Fritz' office. But on a number of occasions, the officers that were on duty there, before I can get my commission book out, some of the newsmen or photographers there that knew me would say, "He is Sorrels of the Secret Service." I, upon being recognized and identifying myself, would be admitted. Some of the officers on duty there of course after the second or third time they would recognize me, and I would have no difficulty getting in. But I cannot say that I saw anyone else being required to identify themselves, because I did not hang around the places where the officers were.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the security conditions that you just described were in effect for the entire period of November 22 through November 24--that is, on the third floor?
Mr. SORRELS. Captain Fritz' office definitely yes--going into his office. I do not recall having to identify myself to get onto the third floor on the 22d when I first got down there. But subsequent to that time, I do recall having to identify myself almost every time I went up there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the general condition of the third floor area from point of personnel, equipment, and so forth?
Mr. SORRELS. I guess you could term it more or less deplorable, because of the fact that they had so many cameras with tripods and cables and wires and photographers and reporters that you would have to step over tripods and wires and almost elbow your way to get in and out of the place. And every time you would come out of it--Captain Fritz' office they would turn on those bright lights, and you would have to shield your eyes almost to keep from being temporarily blinded.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean--that last condition you described took place when anybody came out of Fritz' office, or when they came out with Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. No--I would not say Just anybody, but many times when I would start out, the minute they would see anyone coming out of the door, they would turn the lights on,. I guess to be prepared in case Oswald or anyone else that they wished to photograph would come out.
Mr. HUBERT. During the period that we are talking about, that is, say, from the arrest of Oswald the first time you saw him until the 24th, I take it that you observed Oswald being moved from Captain Fritz' office to the jail elevator at least quite a number of times.
Mr. SORRELS. I can only recall two times, I believe. The first time is when he was taken out of Captain Fritz' office on the afternoon of the 22d. Then there were two other occasions I knew of when he was brought back into Captain Fritz' office and when he was taken out. I remember that many times. In other words, about three going out and two coming in I can definitely recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall that while he was being so moved on any one of those occasions, that he was addressed by the press or questions asked him, or remarks made to him?
Mr. SORRELS. No, because the time that I saw him he was in Captain Fritz' office or being removed from his office. I never saw him in the hallway that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I thought you had mentioned a little while ago that on the first occasion you did observe him---after you had interviewed him for about 10 minutes--you did observe him move out of Fritz' office and go to the elevator.
Mr. SORRELS. I think your question, as I understand it, sir, was that he was removed from Captain Fritz' office to the elevator. I did not see him taken down the hallway.
Mr. HUBERT. I see; I did misunderstand you.
Mr. SORRELS. Sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. So you do not know really whether or not any news media or any other people asked him questions and made remarks to him while he was going from Fritz' office to the elevator.
Mr. SORRELS. Not of my personal knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could those news people see into Fritz' office from the hallway?
Mr. SORRELS. They could see into the outer office, but they could not very well see into his office unless they actually came inside the office within which his office is located. You have got one door that faces on the west side of the office, and then Captain Fritz' there faces north. So that it would be a question of someone might see just a corner portion of his office from the hallway door, which is glass at the top, but they would not be able to see anyone sitting, for example, where Oswald would have been sitting at the time that I saw him in Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was a glass door to what might be called the outer office of Captain Fritz' office.
Mr. SORRELS. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. But the inner office, while it had a glass door, it did not face on an area in which the press was located.
Mr. SORRELS. That's right. It also had Venetian-type blinds on the doors, and the other part of his office was glass from the upper part.
Mr. HUBERT. While you were up there at any time during the period we are talking about, did you ever observe anyone known to you to be a civilian who was not either a police officer or connected with the news media in some way?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not; well, I will take that back. You are talking about when Oswald was around?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, yes. But also I want to broaden it to any time.
Mr. SORRELS. The reason I asked that question is that Jack Ruby's sister was in his office with another lady after Ruby was in custody, and at that time they were in there with Mr. Jim Underwood from radio station KRLD who was trying to make arrangements for Ruby's sister to get up in the jail to see him. But prior to that, I do not know, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you present at a meeting at which the news media were present and Oswald was brought into an assembly room, in which the news media were assembled?
Mr. SORRELS. I was present when Oswald was brought into what is called the lineup room, which is also the assembly room. They have the lineup section at one end of it. That was on the evening of November 22. At that time it was my request, because a witness who had been interviewed by me, and who had seen the person fire the-third shot from the window of the Book Depository Building, I had gotten in touch with him through one of our agents, and he was brought down there for the specific purpose of being able to see Oswald, because when he was first interviewed by me he stated that he thought he could identify him.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in fact, however, a true lineup for the purpose of identification.
Mr. SORRELS. I am sorry--I did not understand the question.
Mr. HUBERT. I said that was a true lineup for the purpose of identification.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I was speaking of another meeting where the assembly room usually used for the lineup was used to give the press an opportunity to see Oswald.
Mr. SORRELS. I was not present. That is the only time I saw Oswald in the lineup.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at any time on the 22d of the concern expressed by Mr. J. Edgar Hoover in regard to the security of Oswald, and allegedly transmitted to the Dallas people?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you become aware of that later?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall ever having heard anything to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Even now you do not?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby at all?
Mr. SORRELS. Not before this incident took place; no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not even know he existed?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir. As a matter of fact, when I first heard Oswald had been shot, I understood the name to be Jack Rubin, and in my first report to my headquarters office I gave them the name of Jack Rubin--R-u-b-i-n, an operator of a nightclub. That is the first information I got. I just misunderstood the pronunciation of the last word.
Mr. HUBERT. I think I have already asked this question in a general way--that is to say, you have covered the area in a general way. But I think for the record I should make it more specific.
You have now come to know a man by the name of Jack Ruby, to the extent that you could recognize him, I suppose.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us whether you saw him in or about the police department building at any time after the President was shot, and until Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. I have no recollection of having seen a man whom I know now to be Jack Ruby before I saw him in the Dallas City Jail on the fifth floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we can pass, I think, for my purposes--and mind you, Mr. Stern might cover some of these areas again, but this is the way this is being handled.
You did see Oswald, I think, on Sunday morning, November 24?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us where and at what time?
Mr. SORRELS. That was in the office of Capt. Will Fritz of the homicide division of the Dallas Police Department. It was somewhere around 11 o'clock in the morning, and he was removed from Captain Fritz' office at approximately I guess about 11:15.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of your interviewing him that morning?
Mr. SORRELS. We, of course, were interested in any statement that Oswald might make relating to any phase of the assassination of the President. Particularly, I was interested in trying to obtain an admission from him that he had used the name of A. Hidell as an alias, because information had been developed that he had purchased the rifle which was found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository under the name of A. Hidell.
There was a change of address card which he had filed in New Orleans, as I recall it, on which it was shown that persons to receive mail at the address given, the name of A. Hidell appeared. And after Captain Fritz got through questioning him on the morning of November 24, he asked if any of the officers present in the room desired to ask him any questions. And I said, "Yes; I would like to ask him a question."
In the meantime, Chief of Police Jesse Curry had come to Captain Fritz' office, and inquired about the delay in moving him out. And Captain Fritz informed that he was still talking to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz informed----
Mr. SORRELS. Informed Chief Curry----
Mr. HUBERT. That he was or you were?
Mr. SORRELS. That he was. And a very short time after that is when I had an opportunity to ask Oswald some questions. I showed Oswald the change of address card----
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this: Was your interrogation of him cut off, as it were, by the transfer?
Mr. SORRELS. By the transfer?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you finished with him?
Mr. SORRELS. I had finished----
Mr. HUBERT. As to that point?
Mr. SORRELS. As to that point; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, you would have had access to him, I think, at the county jail, anyhow, would you not?
Mr. SORRELS. I had certainly planned on having access to him, and I am sure I would have. As a matter of fact, I had in my mind to start talking to him that afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to clarify is whether or not your effort to interrogate him was interrupted. But I gather that it was not.
Mr. SORRELS. No, I would say not. Possibly, had he remained there, I might have attempted to ask him more questions. But he was not giving out much information.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, during the whole time that Oswald was in custody of the Dallas Police Department, did you find that any obstacles or hindrances were put in your way of examining him?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; except had he been in our own custody, there would have been a chance to have questioned him without others being present, or so many others being present.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time that you were in Fritz' office, on November 24, did you hear any plans discussed for the transfer of Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not say that I heard anything about any plans. I do recall that Oswald requested to have some of his clothes brought down there, because his shirt that he had on when he was arrested had been taken from him, I think, for laboratory examination. And Captain Fritz sent and got some of his clothes, and he selected kind of a sweater-type----
Mr. HUBERT. But you did not hear the officers of the Dallas police force discussing the method of transportation and the security measures that they had planned and put into operation?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I did hear a part of it, I recall now. There was some suggestion about transporting him in an armored car. Captain Fritz objected to that because of---one reason that I recall was what effect it might have in his trial, that that might prejudice the prosecution by him being transported in an armored car, which is not of course ordinarily used in the transportation of prisoners in that area.

Another thing that I recall is that Captain Fritz thought that the armored car would be a bit cumbersome and it would not be able to maneuver as easily as a car. And it was his desire to take him in a police car with escorts.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone suggest that the plan then proposed, and ultimately carried out in part, at least, should be changed so as to bypass the press, as it were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not. At that time there was no way to bypass them, because they were out in the hall. As I had come to the building, I even noticed cameras down in the basement of the city hall there.
Mr. SMITH. Could I interrupt just a second, sir. I may be completely wrong about this, but wasn't there something about the time of transporting him?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. As I understand it, some of the reporters had inquired of Chief Jesse Curry as to whether or not he was going to transport him to the county jail on the night of November 23.
Now, this is hearsay, that the reporters wanted to be relieved so they could get some sleep if he was not going to be transported that night--they would go home and get some rest.
Chief Curry himself told me that he had said something to this effect, "Go on home and get your sleep, there won't be anything doing before 10 o'clock tomorrow morning."
As I recall, I think the newspapers then published the fact that he would be moved at 10 o'clock in the morning, or words to that effect.
Mr. SMITH. I just wanted to get the full story, because I remembered him having mentioned something about this. I do not know whether it is important.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in that connection, had you heard that the FBI had received an anonymous phone call from someone advising that an effort, by a group of men, would be made to kill Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that I had heard any such report at that time. I did hear that there had been an anonymous call come into the police department that someone would try to kill him when they removed him, or words to that effect. But that, I believe, was subsequent to the time he was actually shot. I do not recall that morning of having heard anything about that. And I definitely did not hear anything about a group. I remembered something about it later on, but I never heard anything about it at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear of any plans made as to the actual route that would be followed in transporting Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. Not before Oswald was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why, from anything you knew then, or have learned since, the cameramen and so forth were all congregated in the basement area?
Mr. SORRELS. Would you read that question again?
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is this: You testified a moment ago that when you came in you saw all the press people with their cameras and so forth in the basement area.
Mr. SORRELS. Not all of them. I said I saw some down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Which would indicate that they either had guessed or had somehow become aware that--that would indicate that they either had guessed or had somehow become aware that that would be a point on the route to be taken at which they could get pictures. And I was wondering if you had heard anything prior to that time about the route, or had you heard that these people had been informed of the route?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing about the route. The basement is used by the police generally. They have a passageway which comes from Main Street down into the basement, and then the exit continues on out to Commerce Street, and the police cars that bring prisoners in use the basement. In other words, they drive the car right down to the basement, and the actual receiving office, the receiving office for the jail is on the basement floor.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall ever having spoken to either Curry or some other member of the police department about the possibility of moving Oswald in a way other than that which was planned?
Mr. SORRELS. When I heard that they were supposed to take him out at 10 o'clock--that was the announcement and so forth on the radio and in the papers--I remarked to Captain Fritz that if I were he, I would not remove Oswald from the city hall or city jail to the county jail at an announced time; that I would take him out at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning when there was no one around.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when you told that to Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. That was on the Sunday morning, before he was removed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell that to any other person?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was any other person present when you told that to Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. No; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to give that advice to Captain Fritz?
Mr. SORRELS. The importance of the prisoner, to my mind, was such that in order to remove the opportunity for some crackpot or anyone who might feel inclined to try to kill the prisoner, if the removal was made more or less unannounced or in secret, that those opportunities would have been at least lessened to a great degree.
Captain Fritz said that Chief Curry did not want to---let's reverse that just a bit--that Chief Curry wanted to go along with the press and not try to put anything over on them; or words to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather from what Fritz told you that the reason why your suggestion was not acceptable was that Fritz at least thought that captain--that Chief Curry did not want to break his word, as it were, to the press?
Mr. SORRELS. I didn't consider it so much as breaking his word as I would that he did not want to tell them one thing, or in other words, move him out without the press being aware of the fact--let's put it that way. That was my impression.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it, about, do you know, that you made that suggestion?
Mr. SORRELS. That was pretty close to 11:15 in the morning, just a short time before they got ready to move him.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not know, do you, whether he conveyed your thought to Chief Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not. I doubt that he did, because Chief Curry had left Fritz' office at that time, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time it was when the Oswald move began from Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. It was shortly after 11:15 in the morning, as i recall it. In other words----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down with the party carrying him down?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not. Inspector Kelley and I went to the office of Chief Batchelor, which is also on the third floor, and on the south side of the building, on the Commerce Street side, and we were observing the people across the street from the city hall, as apparently they had been moved over there by officers on duty down below. And we just saw several people over there that were apparently waiting for an opportunity to see them take the prisoner out.
Mr. HUBERT. When you arrived at Chief Batchelor's office, at the point you have just described, to wit, the windows looking out on Commerce Street, do you know whether Oswald had been shot?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think so, because that was immediately--in other words, when they took Oswald out, I went right on down to the chief's office, that is right on the same floor. And we were there for a few minutes before we heard that he had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. But the Oswald party left Fritz' office before you and Mr. Kelley did?
Mr. SORRELS. I am rather positive that he was taken out before I left, yes; because I remember about bringing the clothes in there, and Oswald selecting, I think, a sweater or something like that. I actually have no independent recollection of seeing him going through the door or anything like that. He could have been there when we walked out. But it is my impression that he was taken out and shortly thereafter Mr. Kelley and I went to Chief Batchelor's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that involve walking a distance on the same floor of about how many feet?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, possibly a 100 feet, 110, something like that. Captain Fritz' office is not at the entirely opposite end of the building, but Chief Batchelor's office is. You go into the executive area there, and you cut over to the left-hand corner, and Chief Batchelor's office is in the corner.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn that Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. One of the police officers that was on duty in the executive area there told us that Oswald had been shot in the basement--in the stomach, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still in Batchelor's office at the time you were told that?
Mr. SORRELS. I think we were right outside the office, in the area there. I do not believe we were actually in his office at that particular time. I think we had stepped outside there. And that I do not think was over, oh, I would say a maximum of possibly 10 minutes, from the time we left Captain Fritz' office to go to Chief Batehelor's office.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time that this policeman advised you that Oswald had been shot, did you notice any commotion or anything to indicate something wrong going on on Commerce Street?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were standing at the window looking down, as I understand it, on the scene on Commerce Street, waiting actually to see the procession go out. But this officer told you this at the entrance to Batchelor's office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I was not at the window at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. You had moved away?
Mr. SORRELS. We had walked away from the window, I think, just killing time, I guess. And we were actually in the outside of Batchelor's office, but in that area there.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What did you do?
Mr. SORRELS. I immediately rushed down to the basement.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you go--by what route?
Mr. SORRELS. I grabbed an elevator, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Public elevator or the jail elevator?
Mr. SORRELS. No; a public elevator--and got down to the basement floor, and I headed right into the jailer's office. And at that time Oswald was laying on the floor and someone was giving him artificial respiration.

Mr. HUBERT. By mechanical means?
Mr. SORRELS. No; by hand. I recall slicing his stomach was uncovered, his shirt was pulled up like that, and the man apparently was over him giving him artificial respiration by his hands.
I went to a telephone, which is in the jail office there, up against the wall, and called my headquarters office and told Deputy Chief Paterni that Oswald had been shot by a man named Jack Rubin--that is how I understood it at that time who operated a nightclub, and that was all the information I had at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Paterni was in Washington?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a long-distance call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time the call was made, did you use a direct line?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I called it on the security phone, which we use in connection with matters pertaining to the protection of prisoners. In other words, the Signal Corps---- (Witness provided telephone number.)

Mr. HUBERT. And you can use that on any telephone?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a security matter?
Mr. SORRELS. I beg your pardon?
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a security matter, that telephone number?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes--Signal Corps.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the record should show that the witness stated the number that was called, but that we are not going to have it as a part of the record because it is a security matter.
You, Mr. Reporter, will delete the number from the transcript.
What I was trying to get at is have you ascertained at what time that call was made?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I have not.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be possible to do so?
Mr. SORRELS. I could not answer that question, because I do not know what records are kept.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it go as a long-distance call?
Mr. SORRELS. A long-distance call collect; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the telephone company probably would have a record of it?
Mr. SORRELS. Possibly so. It is my understanding that at that time they were not actually making any record of calls--they were coming in so fast, the employees of the telephone company told me those calls--they put people through and were not concerned about time.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this done by direct dialing or through the operator?
Mr. SORRELS. Through the operator.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was a collect call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It would have to be charged to the government?
Mr. SORRELS. If it was recorded; yes, it would be, to that particular phone.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would be so kind as to undertake to ascertain for us if there exists a record on that point, because, as you know, we are interested in very narrow areas of time here.
Mr. SORRELS. I would say this-that the time can be established within a matter of a very few minutes, because Oswald was still on the floor and had not been removed to the hospital at the time.
Mr. HUBERT. That is right.
But you see, I have estimates of time from other people, and I want to see how it conforms. And therefore, to tie it in, could you give us your estimate of how many minutes or parts of minutes elapsed between the time you made your call, you initiated it, and the time that Oswald actually moved out?
Mr. SORRELS. That I cannot tell you, because I was not there when he was moved out. I left then that area as soon as I made that call.
Mr. HUBERT. He was still in the area when you made the call?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
The call went through very quickly. And I left that area then and went back to Captain Fritz' office, bees use I was interested in talking to the man who had shot Oswald as quickly as possible.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you went down there to the jail office and saw Oswald, as you testified, and made the call, was Jack Ruby there?
Mr. SORRELS. I did not see him.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. To your knowledge, he had already been removed?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did you get up to Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. I went back up the elevator, the regular public elevator, and went to his office and inquired of Captain Fritz, and I was informed that he was not there, that he had gone to the hospital. I then asked him where was Jack Rubin.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you had been informed at that time that the last name of Jack Ruby was Rubin, R-u-b-i-n?
Mr. SORRELS. I still--as far as I knew, it was R-u-b-i-n, because that is the way I gave it. I asked him where he was, and they said he was on the fifth floor. And I said I would like to talk to him. And----
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you say that to?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall who it was--some of the detectives down there.
Mr. HUBERT. In Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. In Captain Fritz' office; yes. And Officer Dean was instructed to take me up to where he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Who instructed Dean to do that?
Mr. SORRELS. The same officer I was talking to--I don't remember who it was, but someone apparently----
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Dean prior to that time?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I cannot say that I did. So----
Mr. HUBERT. Where was Dean?
Mr. SORRELS. That was in the detective office, Captain Fritz----
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't know what he was doing.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the same officer to whom you made inquiry concerning where Captain Fritz was and where Ruby was, that officer directed Dean, who was in Fritz' office, to take you up?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
And we walked out then in the hallway to the jail elevator. Now, that is a different one from the one I came to Fritz' office in. And I was taken to the fifth floor, and there I saw Ruby, whom I later found out to be Ruby, standing there with, as I recall it, two uniformed police officers. And I introduced myself to him, showed him my credentials, and told him that I would like to ask him some questions.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was this a cell, or what sort of a room was it?
Mr. SORRELS. It wasn't what you would call a cell, but the elevator--you had to open up a door with bars on it to get into the area there. And----
Mr. HUBERT. How large a room was that?
Mr. SORRELS. It wasn't very large, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us something by way of dimensions in feet?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say in width it was probably about, oh, 6 or 7 feet wide. Now, as to length, I would not be able to say exactly how long it was, because I was not interested in the size of the room or anything at that time, and I paid no attention to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there tables and furniture and chairs in it?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. Nothing at all?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing. He was standing there. He only had his shorts on. His clothes had been removed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Dean go into that room with you?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that there were you and Dean and Ruby in the room?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you mentioned there were two other officers?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, there were two uniformed police officers there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who they were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, to get it clear--I do not mean if you knew who they were at the time, but do you now know who they were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not know who they are now.
Mr. HUBERT. And there were only those two?
Mr. SORRELS. There were possibly some other officers came in. I do not recall that they were there at the time we got there, but there might have been others came in. As I recall, there was somebody behind me. I wasn't interested in them. I was only interested in talking to this man as quickly as I could.
Mr. HUBERT. Before we get into the details, can you tell us how long this interview with Ruby lasted?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say possibly not over 5 to 7 minutes, not very long.
Mr. HUBERT. What brought it to an end?
Mr. SORRELS. I had gotten the information that I desired at that time, and was anxious to get it back into Washington, because I had been asked to get as much information as I could quickly, and get it back to them up there, something about his background, who he was and so forth.
Mr. HUBERT. So that during that interview, which lasted approximately 5 to 7 minutes, your thought is---you know that there was Dean and yourself and Ruby, and you also know that there were two other officers whose names you do not know even now, and you think that there might have been one or more others who came in?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes--in plainclothes. I don't recall any other uniformed officers there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you do not recall, I suppose, or do not know now the names of any of those other people who might have come in?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I could not tell you who they were at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you have made a report of that interview, and a later one, and we will offer that in evidence a little later.
But I would like to ask you now if Ruby made any statement to your knowledge at that time, and that is the first interview you had with him, concerning whether he had been in the assembly room on the night of the 22d when Oswald was brought in so that the press could observe him?
Mr. SORRELS. Not at that time; no, sir. He did later.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time, the first interview, indicate anything, or say anything which would indicate what his motive or reason for his act was?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; and I might say that it was at that time that I found out his name was Ruby in place of Rubin, and he informed me his name had formerly been Rubinstein, and that he had had his name changed in Dallas.

I asked him--after I identified myself, I told him I would like to ask him some questions.
He said, "For newspapers or magazines?" I said, "No; for myself."
He appeared to be considering whether or not he was going to answer my questions, and I told him that I had just come from the third floor, and had been looking out of the window, and that I had seen Honest Joe, who is a Jewish merchant there, who operates a second-hand loan pawn shop, so to speak, specializing in tools, on Elm Street, and who is more or less known in the area because of the fact that he takes advantage of any opportunity to get free advertising. He at that time had an Edsel car, which is somewhat a rarity now, all painted up with "Honest Joe" on there. He wears jackets with "Honest Joe" on the back. He gets writeups in the paper, free advertising about different things he loans money on, like artificial limbs and things like that. And I had noticed Honest Joe across the street when I was looking out of Chief Batchelor's office.
So I remarked to Jack Ruby, I said, "I just saw Honest Joe across the street over there, and I know a number of Jewish merchants here that you know."
And Ruby said, "That is good enough for me. What is it you want to know?"
And I said these two words, "Jack---why?"
He said, "When this thing happened"--referring to the assassination, that he was in a newspaper office placing an ad for his business. That when he heard about the assassination, he had canceled his ad and had closed his business, and he had not done any business for 3 days. That he had been grieving about this thing. That on the Friday night he had gone to the synagogue and had heard a eulogy on the President. That his sister had recently been operated on, and that she has been hysterical. That when he saw that Mrs. Kennedy was going to have to appear for the trial, he thought to himself, why should she have to go through this ordeal for this no-good so-and-so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he use any words or did he say "no-good so-and-so"?
Mr. SORRELS. He used the word "son-of-a-bitch," as I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SORRELS. That he had heard about the letter to little Caroline, as I recall he mentioned. That he had been to the Western Union office to send a telegram, and that he guessed he had worked himself into a state of insanity to where he had to do it. And to use his words after that, "I guess I just had to show the world that a Jew has guts."
I, of course, asked him when he was born. He told me in Chicago, March 25, 1911. That he operated the Carousel Club. And also a Vegas Club.
I asked him if anyone else was involved in this thing besides him, and he said that there was not.
I asked him if he knew Oswald before this thing happened, and he said he did not. He said that he had been a labor organizer years ago.
I asked him if he had ever been convicted of any offense or done any time, and he said no felony, that he had a JP release in 1954---in other words, he had been arrested but released by the JP in 1954.
I asked him what his father's name was, and he said his name was Joseph Rubenstein.
I asked him where his father was born, and he said Russia.
I asked him if his mother was living, and he said no, that she was deceased, and that she was born in Poland. That he was of the Jewish faith.
I asked him if he had an attorney, and he said he had Stanley Kaufman, a civil attorney, as his attorney. And I recall, I believe that is about--that about terminated the conversation at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you not ask him why he had the gun with him?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; I did.
I asked him why he had that gun, and he said that he carried a gun because of the fact that he carried large quantities of money from his business, or from the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he made any comment to you or in your hearing regarding the way he got into the basement area where he shot Oswald?
Mr. SORRELS. At that time, I do not. I do not recall asking him how he got in. I made no notes to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember him saying then anything about that he had intended to shoot Oswald and had formed that intent as early as Friday?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not comment at all about his intent?
Mr. SORRELS. No; nothing except his response to my question as to "Jack, why?", and then his relating as I have told you there a moment ago. In other words, after I got----
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention anything about he intended to shoot him three times?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not hear that statement.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the only comments that you heard him state which bear upon intent are those you have already made--that is to say, somebody had to do it, and also that he wanted to show the world that a Jew had guts?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I did not hear him say that somebody had to do it. I heard him say that he guessed he had worked himself into a state of insanity to where he had to do it, felt he had to do it.
Mr. HUBERT. But he did make the report saying he felt he had to show the world that a Jew had guts?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; that was very plain.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you left, who left with you?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall, I went by myself, because when I got the information about his background, as I related here, and got his correct name and the information that he was operating alone on this thing, that no one else was involved with him, and he did not know Oswald, I then left in order to telephone that information to my headquarters in Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you state positively, therefore, to us that when you left Dean was in the room?
Mr. SORRELS. I think he must. have been, because, as I recall it, I went down on the elevator by myself with the elevator operator.
Mr. HUBERT. And Dean was in the room at all times you were talking to him?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not leave with you?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; he did not.
Mr. HUBERT. The two other officers who were in uniform I think you said, who were in the room at first, they were there all the time too?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. They did not leave when you left? No, sir.
Mr. SORRELS. And if anybody else came in afterwards, they did not leave when you left?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I recall.
As I recall it, I think I went down alone, just the elevator operator and myself. Of course he had my sidearm. I had to get my sidearm from him. If there was anyone else there, I didn't know.
Mr. HUBERT. You had to get your sidearm----
Mr. SORRELS. From the elevator operator.
In other words, you are not permitted to carry a gun inside the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw him again later that day?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what time, under what circumstances, where, who was present, and so forth?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not remember just exactly the time, but it was some time after that when Jack Ruby was brought to Captain Fritz' office, and Captain Fritz questioned him. I was present at that time and heard Captain Fritz interrogate him and made some notes and wrote them up. And I also at that time asked him a few questions myself, on some points I wanted to clarify.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you there from the beginning of the interview between Ruby and Fritz, or did you arrive when it was already going on?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I was there at the beginning, because I heard Captain Fritz tell him of course he did not have to make a statement and so on and so forth, and Ruby said, "Well, I will answer your questions, but some of them I may not want to answer, and I will tell you so."
Mr. HUBERT. Were you introduced to him?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I had talked to him up in the jail there.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present during the entire interview?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I was, on that one interview.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us who else was present?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I do not recall who else was there.
As I recall, there was other officers there in the room with Captain Fritz, but I do not recall who.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say you had made notes as Captain Fritz was interrogating him. Do you have those notes?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I have the notes here.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have notes also of the first interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes. I read some of the stuff awhile ago from those notes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason of security or otherwise why we could not get photostats of them for the record?
Mr. SORRELS. Not that I know of.
They may not mean much to anyone else, because it is just something jotted down to refresh my memory. They are not in very good order, or anything like that. And I don't know whether it would mean too much to anyone else.
As far as I know----
Mr. HUBERT. You have no objections?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it those notes were made contemporaneously with the interviews, as they went on?
Mr. SORRELS. The ones of Ruby were; yes.
Now, there is other stuff in here that had nothing to do with that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we are interested of course only in the Ruby ones. But you testified a little while ago, and you seemed to be referring to notes, about what Ruby said, and what happened and so forth in the first interview, and then also in the second interview.

The notes that you referred to on both occasions were made contemporaneously with the interview. That is, they were not made at a later date?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct.
Now, there is other stuff in this notebook. Like I went up to the identification bureau to check on his record and so forth, and got his detailed description, and his fingerprint classification--that had nothing to do with the interview.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we ought to take that to show what the practice was.
Mr. HUBERT. If you do not mind, we will have them photostated, and after we get the photostats, we will get them an identification number.
Suppose you tell us, then, what occurred at the second interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Continuing with what I started out with a moment ago there, he incidentally, I have noted here on this page where I made these notations "3:15 p.m.," I assume that is possibly the time this interrogation took place. I do have the date, "11-24- 63."
Mr. HUBERT. The beginning of the notes relating to the interview in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your testimony now it would be your custom, as I understand it, to put the time at the beginning of the notes.
Mr. SORRELS. Ordinarily we do. In this other one, I did not put the time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SORRELS. He gave his name as Jack Leon Ruby. He was asked about who his attorneys were, and he said that he was going to get Tom Howard and possibly Fred Brunner, and Stanley Kaufman, a civil attorney, and Jim Arnton.

In other words, he was going to consider those and C. A. Droby. He said that his name was changed in Dallas.
Now, I might put in here as an explanation that these are in response to questions that Captain Fritz was asking him. That he had this gun for 2 or 3 years. That George Senator was a roommate. That he came in the basement--the word "basement" is not shown here he came in off Main Street, off of the ramp. That he felt that Oswald was a Red, and that he was alone on this assassination. That he saw Oswald in the showup room, or a similar room. That he knew who he was going for. That he did not want to be a martyr. That he had built up--was a buildup of grievance. That he had closed both clubs.
And I have the notation here "Vegas, Oaklawn, 3508, Carousel, 1312 1/2 Commerce." That he never saw the man before this thing took place, referring to the time that he was down at the police station, or city hall, rather. That he had been in the mail- order business. That he had been a labor organizer. That he was fond of the police department.
And when Police Officer Slick had been killed--that is all I have in the notes, but he said that he grieved about that.
That he had been around Saturday night, that people were laughing, no one was in mourning. That he had seen a eulogy on TV. That he saw the President's brother, Bobby, on TV. That he guessed that there was created a moment of insanity. That he read about the letter that someone sent to little Caroline. That he knows the police department is wonderful. That his heart was with the police department. That he had hoped that if ever there was an opportunity--that he had hoped there was an opportunity for him to par ticipate in a police battle, and he could be a part of it, meaning on the side the police.
That his mother and dad were separated for 25 years. That he owes Uncle Sam a big piece of money. That he has love for the city of Dallas--for the city--he did not say Dallas. That his sister was operated on recently, she was hysterical about the President. That he went to the synagogue Friday night, heard a eulogy. And he had been grieving from that time on. That he went over to where the President was shot.
He wanted Captain Fritz to not hate him for what he had done. That when he was with the union, that one of his dear friends was killed, he came to the place where it happened. Leon Cook was the man. That Ruby's mother told him to leave. That he was in the union Scrap Iron and Junk Dealers Association. That a man by the name of Jim Martin killed Cook. That Martin was political and had affiliations and got out of it.
That his roommate sold postcards. That his politics were Democratic, but he voted for the man.
That Sammy Ruby, a brother, who services washaterias. Another brother, Earl Ruby, in Detroit, who operated a cleaning plant. Another brother, Hyman Rubenstein, in Chicago, a salesman.
That he had also sold twist boards. That he would not think of committing a felony. That Tom O'Grady, a Catholic, formerly with the police department, had called him, that he had called Sims, who is one of the members oa3 the police department, and wanted to bring sandwiches for them, because he knew they were having a tough time, and that Sims said that it wasn't needed.
That he tried to located---anyway, it was some of the TV people to give them to. And that is when he went to the showup room. And that is the first time that he had even seen anyone like that, referring to Oswald.
That he had seen Henry, meaning Henry Wade, the district attorney, talking to someone. That KLIF, the radio station there, had been good to him. No one else was involved.
That is my notes--"no one else involved"--meaning there was no one else involved with him, Ruby, in connection with the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was this a sort of monologue on his part, or response to questions?
Mr. SORRELS. No; as I said a moment ago, that was in response to questions.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, thus far have you covered only the part of the interview which was conducted by Fritz, or was some of that the result of your questioning?
Mr. SORRELS. About the only thing that I recall questioning him about was possibly the correct address on the night club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anyone asked him how he got in? I think perhaps you have testified to that already.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, Captain Fritz asked him that.
Mr. HUBERT. And he said he came in through the ramp, I believe you said.
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he state at any time during that interview about any intent to kill Oswald, to shoot him three times, and he is glad he was dead?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am going to show you a document which is actually a photostatic copy, or Xerox copy, of Commission Document 354, consisting of four pages. I am going to mark that document for identification as follows, to wit, "Deposition of Forrest Sorrels, Washington, D.C., May 6, 1964," and I am signing my name to that, all of which is on the right margin of the first page. I am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second, third, and fourth pages. I ask you if you can identify this document, or rather, the photostatic copy? Would you state what it is?
Mr. SORRELS. This is a photocopy of a memorandum report titled "Assassination of President Kennedy," the second line of that caption, "Jack Leon Ruby--slayer of Lee Harvey Oswald, charged with murder of President Kennedy." Submitted by me, Forrest V. Sorrels, on February 3, 1964. And it consists of three full pages and a portion of--about a fifth of the fourth page.
Mr. HUBERT. I think your signature, or, rather, a photostatic copy of your signature is on the front.
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct--on the front.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the report that you submitted to your superiors?
Mr. SORRELS. In Washington.
Mr. HUBERT. Which ultimately, of course, they sent. The report covers the events of November 24, is that right?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why it was flied on February 3?
Mr. SORRELS. Why it was written on February 3? I was instructed by Inspector Kelley to write up a memorandum on the interview that I had with Jack Ruby, shortly after Oswald was shot by Ruby, and also the interview that was had with Captain Fritz and Ruby at which I was present on the same date.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive those instructions?
Mr. SORRELS. I cannot say exactly when I received them--probably within a day or two, or it could have been longer, because due to. the press of other work and things arising out of the assassination, and its duties, the other duties, it was not written as soon as it should have been. And I may have been instructed some time before that to--as quick as I could to get the memorandum prepared.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is that normally you would write such a report as this in any case?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, that is true.
Mr. HUBERT. And normally it would be written sooner----
Mr. SORRELS. Sooner, that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Than 2 months or so afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I am asking--if you can tell us what was the cause of the delay.
Mr. SORRELS. Well, it is just the fact that we were burdened with all the additional work and things brought about by this assassination and investigation and so forth. I guess you could term it, possibly, negligence on my part for not just taking time off and doing it. That is about the only explanation I can give for that. It was not any willful intent to not write it or anything to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no suggestion as to that.
Mr. SORRELS. I know. But that is just as a matter of explanation.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was written on that date because Mr. Kelley told you shortly before that date, to wit, February 3, that you should write it, or is it your impression that Mr. Kelley had told you long before it was written to write it?
Mr. SORRELS. There is a possibility that he may have told me before. I don't recall it specifically. But I do know that Inspector Kelley had instructed me to write up the report.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall having a conversation with Mr. Burr Griffin, the gentleman who is in the office now, concerning what you knew about what Ruby had said in your interviews with him?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I do. And that refreshed my memory a bit, because I recall that Inspector Kelley, after I had talked to Mr. Griffin on the telephone Inspector Kelley told me to get it written up, get it in writing, about the interview, and get it in. I remember that now, since you mention it.
Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the report was written because Inspector Kelley instructed you to do so, and as you recall it he did so because of the conversation with Mr. Griffin?
Mr. SORRELS. I would surmise that, because, as I recall it now, either right after I got through talking to Mr. Griffin or shortly thereafter, Mr. Kelley did instruct me to get the interview, as I recall it, in a report, and get it in to him.
Mr. HUBERT. But normally I think you said this report would have been written anyhow, without any suggestion by Mr. Kelley or anybody else?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was your intent to write it, you say, but you didn't get around to it?
Mr. SORRELS. That is about the best explanation I know to make on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you recall a conversation with Chief Curry with respect to what you knew that Ruby had said?
Perhaps I can identify the conversation a bit more by saying to you that it had to do with a suggestion by you as to what the witnesses who were members of the police department might be called in the prosecution.
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, yes; I remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us, first of all, when it was?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall, it was after the trial of Ruby had started, or along about the time it was beginning to start. I contacted Chief Curry and told him----
Mr. HUBERT. Is this by phone, or was it by personal interview?
Mr. SORRELS. No; as I recall it was by phone that there were two uniformed police officers that were present when I talked to Ruby on the fifth floor of the city jail on the morning of November 24, and that I had not warned Ruby of his constitutional rights and did not know whether or not the statement that he had made to me would be admissible in a trial in the event that the district attorney wanted to use it.
But----
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been at that time consulted by the district attorney with reference to your being a possible witness?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that I had.
Now, here is something that will establish that. The district attorney, Henry Wade, came to Washington--I don't know whether it was in connection with talking to the Commission or what--but I saw him out at the airport, and he said to me----
Mr. HUBERT. What airport?
Mr. SORRELS. This was before the trial--Love Field, in Dallas.
He was Coming to Washington. And he said to me, "I want to talk to you when I get back about this case."
And I said, "All right."
And I did not hear anything more from Mr. Wade until the trial was actually in progress. He asked me to come to his office, which I did.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. That is Henry Wade; yes, sir, the State district attorney that prosecuted Ruby for the murder of Oswald.
And, at that time, I related to him the conversation I had had with Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you relate to him in that interview approximately what you have told us today about your interviews with Ruby?
Mr. SORRELS. Only the one up in the jail--I was talking about that. I didn't go into detail about this one where Captain Fritz was interviewing him. That was only there at the jail.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason why one was talked about and not the other?
Mr. SORRELS. No; no particular reason, excepting that I just assumed that Captain Fritz would be the one if there was any testimony as to the second interview--would be the one to testify in that case.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Wade know that you were present at beth?
Mr. SORRELS. I would not say positive, but it seems to me that it was mentioned that I was present when we talked, but I am. not positive on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did this interview with Wade occur before or after the telephone conversation with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. No; that was afterwards. That was after the trial started.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, which was afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. The interview with Mr. Wade.
Mr. HUBERT. That came after the telephone conversation with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Wade consider using you as a witness?
Mr. SORRELS. He said if he needed me, he would let me know--in other words, would get in touch with me.
He said, "Now, the defense may subpoena you on this thing."
And defense attorney--one of them was in on that case did call me on the telephone. They wanted me to meet with either Tonahill or Belli, or maybe both of them. And I told them I was extremely busy.
He said, "How about having dinner with us?"
I said, "No; I don't even have time to eat big dinners, I just grab a sandwich," because I didn't want to have dinner with them.
They called me a second time, because there had been a delay from the time they thought they were going to call me--they called me the second time and that is when they said something about having dinner with them later, and I said, no; I didn't have time.
And at that time I told them I didn't think I could do them any good. I said I can tell you in a short time what I could testify to.
He said, "Over the phone?"
I said, "Yes."
So I told them about the interview with Ruby in the jail up in the jailhouse. I did not go into detail about the other, because I did not consider that my interview.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking there about the second interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention you had been present?
Mr. SORRELS. I do not recall that I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the Curry matter, what was your motivation in calling Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. I felt that the testimony or the statements, rather, made by Ruby right after he had shot Oswald would be of benefit to the district attorney in the prosecution of this case, the statements that he made as to the fact that he had worked himself into a state of insanity, also the statement that he guessed he had to show the world that a Jew had guts. And I also recall that during the questioning by Captain Fritz during the interview there that Ruby had made the remark, "Well, I would make a good actor, wouldn't I?" to Captain Fritz. And I felt that possibly I could not testify, because of the fact that I had not warned Ruby of his constitutional rights.
I thought of that before I talked to him, but the part that I was interested in, that is, determining whether or not anyone else was involved with him, or whether or not he knew Oswald, I didn't consider--I mean I considered that if I warned him of his constitutional rights on that particular angle, that he might not even tell me that, and that is the reason I did not warn him of his constitutional rights, because I felt it was of paramount interest to our Service to determine whether or not others were involved in this thing besides Ruby, and of paramount interest to determine whether or not Oswald and Ruby knew each other, or had any connection.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it a custom, rule, or regulation of your Service that you must warn a person of his constitutional rights before you can question him?
Mr. SORRELS. On our investigations; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And is that a custom, or is it actually a published regulation?
Mr. SORRELS. Well, we know that we are going to get in serious trouble in court if we don't do it, because that is always-- the question is always asked, especially by a defense attorney, and so forth. And we know that we are supposed to do it. I try to adhere to it as much as I possibly can.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to determine is whether that is your only personal----
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Way of doing things, or if it is an established policy of the Service, and if so, how is it established?
Mr. SORRELS. I think it is possibly a bit of both, because it is always my practice to tell these people that we cannot promise them anything---I am talking about the people we handle for prosecution in our investigations. And that, of course, they don't have to tell us anything if. they don't want to. We make that known--because if we do not we know if there is a trial in a case, that that question is going to be asked, and we know that under our laws that a person is supposed to be warned of his constitutional rights before he is questioned.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that your version of what the law is?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the policy matter, I don't expect you to be able to quote it to me now, but you have the impression there is something in writing in some manual of standard operations, instructions, that requires that you warn a person of his constitutional rights?
Mr. SORRELS. I just cannot answer that question, because I just can't recall if there is a specific instruction of that particular thing or not.
But I do know that if we do not warn them of their constitutional rights, that we are--we will be in serious trouble in the trial of a case because if the question is asked, "Did you warn this man of his constitutional rights?" we have to tell the truth, and if we say "No, it wasn't," we would be jeopardizing our case.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you called Curry, you had not spoken to Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. Not about the actual interview with Ruby at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you talked to Curry, was that before or after you saw Wade at Love Field?
Mr. SORRELS. I can't say for sure, but I think it was probably afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is what motivated your call to him.
Mr. SORRELS. I probably didn't make myself plain.
What motivated my call to him was that I figured that if I was called to Mr. Wade's office to explain this thing to him, that the fact that I had not warned Ruby when I approached him to get this information--that I had not warned him of his constitutional rights, that I would not--it would not be good testimony. And my thought is that the two men who were the two uniformed officers there, who were just standing by and had nothing to do with the questions and so forth, who heard what was said, they might be able to testify to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. So you wanted to get that information to someone in authority?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And the information was twofold--that you knew there was someone who could testify as to what Ruby had said, because you had heard Ruby say it in the presence of other people?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And, secondly, you were doubtful as to whether your testimony as such would be valuable?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why you conveyed that information to Curry instead of Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. Because I did not know the names of the two police officers that were there. Two uniformed men.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, was it your thought, then, if you advised Curry he would get the names of the men, and then convey it to Wade? I am trying to get what your motivation was.
Mr. SORRELS. Well, that is all I can recall as to the motivation. In other words, I don't know that I thought that he would convey the information to Wade or not. I just cannot recall whether I had that in mind or not. But I did have in mind that possibly these two fellows, these two uniformed police officers, might be able to testify as to what Ruby said there when I would not be able to do so, because of the fact I had not warned him.
Mr. HUBERT. And this conversation with Curry was in between the time you saw Wade at Love Field and the time you had the interview with him when he came back from Washington?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, it was. I won't be positive about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you told Wade, I think you said, the same thing, about your doubts as to your qualifications.
Mr. SORRELS. I believe that I did, if I recall it correctly, because I think when I was talking to Wade in his office, that that was mentioned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any memo of the conversation you had with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any memo of the interview you had with Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Curry say to you when you told him this information?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, I think he said that he could possibly find out. It seemed to me like I talked to Chief Batchelor about that, also. I am not positive. But, anyway, I figured they would have a way of knowing who it was that was there, and so forth, at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anyway you could fix for us more definitely the dates of these three occurrences--your meeting with Wade at Love Field, your telephone conversation with Curry, and your interview with Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. I think that I can on the one at Love Field, because, as I recall it, Miss Lynda Johnson was en route to Washington, D.C., and I went to Love Field to be there at the time they arrived in the event that they might need a car or something. I can establish that--February 16, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't know it now, but you could establish it?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I could establish it.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would undertake to establish that for us.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; I would.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you think there is no other collateral way to establish the dates of the other matters?
Mr. SORRELS. I can--I think I can pretty well establish it. I will tell you why. At the time that I was in Wade's office, and during the course of the time that I talked to him, this officer Dean came into Mr. Wade's office and Mr. Wade asked me about if I was present when Ruby said such and such things--I don't recall what it was now--I think about that he had been thinking for 2 or 3 days about killing this fellow, or words to that effect, and I told him I was not. And it was right after that that Dean testified in that case. And I think I can establish about pretty close to what day it was. He either testified that day or the following day, as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. What interval of time would have elapsed between your meeting Wade at the airport and the date of the interview?
Mr. SORRELS. Oh, I think that would have been probably--it is just hard to estimate the time, but it was before the trial of Ruby had ever even begun. It would just be a guess on my part, but I would say it was probably maybe 2 or 3 weeks, or maybe even more.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you fix for us--put it this way: Can you fix for us whether the Curry conversation was closer to the time you met Wade at Love Field than it was to the time you interviewed Wade, or Wade interviewed you?
Mr. SORRELS. I just don't believe I can. It seems to me like it was shortly after I had seen Mr. Wade. I may be wrong about that. But I know the thought occurred to me, well, if I am going to be called down on that thing, I don't think they are going to be able to accept my testimony, because of the fact that Ruby wasn't warned. And so it was that time that I thought about maybe getting the names of these other two officers who could possibly remember the conversation, and they were standbys and were not the ones actually in the questioning.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember telling Mr. Griffin here that you would call the Dallas Police Department--I think that was in a telephone conversation he had with you--to find out the names of the people?
Mr. SORRELS. It seems that I did mention to Mr. Griffin, when he was talking to me on the phone, that there were others present, and that I could possibly find out their names, and it seems to me that Mr. Griffin said something about, "Well, no; don't do that," or "It is not necessary."
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me ask you this: Would that have been before you called Curry, or afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. Let me see now. I think that would have been before.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps it is this. Perhaps it was that when you had a personal conversation with Mr. Griffin in Dallas that you told him that you had made a call to ascertain the names of these people.
Mr. SORRELS. It could have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make such a call?
Mr. SORRELS. Did I?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SORRELS. I made a call. I am not sure it was to Chief Curry. It seems to me I remember talking to Chief Batchelor on that. Now, I may have mentioned it to Chief Curry, too. But it seems to me like I- remember talking to Chief Batchelor.
Mr. HUBERT. About the existence of some officers?
Mr. SORRELS. To find out who the uniformed officers were who were there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, would that conversation with Chief Batchelor be before the Curry conversation or afterwards?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall that I made that conversation to both of them or not. Now, I am just not positive about that. But I do recall having made that call for the specific purpose of getting somebody that was there, those two uniformed officers, that could have heard that conversation, that could have testified in the case down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that that aspect of the matter was part of the call to Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. I just don't remember--I just don't remember. But I know that I did talk to either Curry or Chief Batchelor, and I am inclined to think it was Chief Batchelor. Now, when you mentioned awhile ago about the call to Curry, I, of course, said "yes" on that, because I was thinking about the call. But since thinking about it, I am not sure that it was Chief Curry that I talked to at all about that particular angle. But I do know that I talked to Chief Batchelor about it. I know that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's see if we can clarify it. There is no doubt about it that there was one telephone call made to a high police official.
Mr. SORRELS. That is what I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You are definite that one call was made to Batchelor.
Mr. SORRELS. If my memory serves me right, it seems that I did talk to Batchelor.
Now, whether I talked to Chief Curry on that particular thing or not, I am not too positive.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the matter stands that you are not certain that there was the second telephone call with Curry at all?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you have covered with Batchelor the material that we have talked about that you say you did cover with Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. Now, what material is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, such as that you were doubtful about your ability to testify, and so forth.
Mr. SORRELS. Not necessarily. In other words, if it was Batchelor that I called, then I would have, I think, have explained it to him. If it had been Curry I called, I would explain it to him--as to why I was wanting these names, or given that information to them.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at, you see, is whether or not there were two calls.
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall that there were two calls. I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are positive you spoke to Batchelor?
Mr. SORRELS. It seems that I remember talking to Chief Batchelor about it, because it seems that I can remember that he said, "I am sure that we can find out that information," or words to that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, if there was only one call--that is to say, if you are doubtful about two, and you do remember definitely Batchelor, then the one call would have to be Batchelor, would it not?
Mr. SORRELS. That is correct; yes.
Mr. SMITH. I think there is a lack of meeting of the minds here.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you try to help me out? I would appreciate it.
Mr. SMITH. Let me see if I can clarify this. Was there definitely a conversation with Curry about whether you would be able to testify because of your failure to warn Ruby of his constitutional rights?
Mr. SORRELS. I just cannot say positively that there was. I do know that I made a phone call for the specific purpose of informing them of the fact that these two uniformed police officers were there and could have heard the conversation that I had with Ruby, and as my memory serves me it seems that was Chief Batchelor. Now, I may have had conversations with Chief Curry. We have talked about this thing from many, many different angles from time to time.
Mr. SMITH. Let me ask it a different way.
Was there one call to obtain the names of the men, uniformed policemen, who were in the room when you interrogated Ruby, and a second call concerning the question of whether you could testify, or were these two subjects covered in one telephone conversation?
Mr. SORRELS. No; as I recall it, there was only one conversation on it at that time.
Mr. SMITH. All right. And you don't know, then, for sure, whether it was to Chief Batchelor or to Chief Curry?
Mr. SORRELS. I would say that, if my memory serves me right, it seems to me like it was Chief Batchelor. There were many, many conversations about this case from many angles. But I know I was concerned when Henry Wade indicated I was going to be called as a witness down there, because I felt that they should know that, and I think as I recall it when he talked to me I told him about those two uniformed officers being there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, whoever you talked to, did that person, whether it was Curry or Batchelor, indicate that he was not aware of the information you were giving him?
Mr. SORRELS. Now, what information?
Mr. HUBERT. About the statements made by Ruby. And that you had been present.
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. You have already adverted to the telephone call that you had from Mr. Griffin.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make the telephone call to Curry or Batchelor as a result of the conversation you had with Mr. Griffin?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That was independent? You think it was before?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think it was before, because as I recall it, this conversation with Mr. Griffin was quite some time before.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Sorrels, I call your attention to the fact that on the exhibit which has been identified as Commission Document 354, as to which you have already testified, there is no mention of the names of the officers who were present, and that is dated February 3, 1964. Does that help you to recollect whether you then got interested in who those people were and called Batchelor or Curry, or both?
Mr. SORRELS. It probably brought it to my mind that there were other people present there, and I think I so informed Mr. Griffin on the telephone. But that is not what prompted me to make the call about the two uniformed officers, because that had no bearing on what I told Mr. Griffin. What he was asking me over the telephone is what I had heard Ruby say. And I told him what I had heard Ruby say. And he had asked me about certain things that I did not recall hearing Ruby say, and I told him so at the time. And when I was in District Attorney Wade's office, the question was asked of me by Mr. Wade as to whether or not certain statements alleged to have been made by Ruby were made to Officer Dean in my presence, and I told him I did not hear anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps another approach would be this: You were interested or became interested sometime in finding out the names of these people. Isn't that a fact?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes; but only for that particular purpose.
Mr. HUBERT. And you also wanted to convey the information that you were doubtful whether you would qualify, as you put it, as a witness, because you had failed to warn. And that that thought came into your mind after Wade indicated that you might be a witness.
Mr. SORRELS. That is as I recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. And that, therefore, you called someone. Now, were those two things in the same conversation?
Mr. SORRELS. You mean about----
Mr. HUBERT. The inquiry as to the names, who these people were, and to convey the information that you were worried about your own qualifications if you should be considered.
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You think there were two conversations?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Just one?
Mr. SORRELS. As far as I know there would be one. Because that is the only interest I had. As I recall it, I told Mr. Griffin over the telephone that there were others present, and I could possibly find out who they were, and for that purpose that he was trying to bring out on the telephone conversation, and as I recall it he told me, "No; don't do that."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find out who the two people were?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I could not tell you to this day who they are.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, whoever you spoke to, Batchelor or Curry, who said they would let you know----
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't think it was my purpose in finding out who they were for my own benefit. That wasn't the point at all. It was my thought that they should have information for the district attorney--period.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not interested in knowing who they were yourself? You wanted them to know of the fact that there were two officers there?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you were worried about your own qualifications?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us approximately the lapse of time, if you can remember it, between your conversation with Mr. Griffin and your conversation with either Chief Batchelor or Chief Curry that you have been speaking of?
Mr. SORRELS. Well, I would say it was quite some time afterwards, because this conversation-I don't remember the date I had it with Mr. Griffin, but it was prior to the writing of this memorandum. And it was quite some time after that that the trial ever started. And when Mr. Wade saw me at the airport and said, "I want to see you and talk to you about this case," the trial, of course, had not started at that time. So it was quite some time afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what did Curry or Batchelor, whoever it was, tell you when you told him of this?
Mr. SORRELS. As I recall it, they said they could get the information. That is all that I recall that they said.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when speaking to Wade at the interview whether you adverted to the conversation you had had over the telephone with either Batchelor or Wade, or possibly both?
Mr. SORRELS. No; I don't recall that that was mentioned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other conversation with any officers in the police department? I mean about this aspect that we are talking about now?
Mr. SORRELS. I saw Captain Fritz at the district attorney's office the day that I was down there and talked to him, and I cannot recall about whether or not there was a conversation with him about who was present at that time or not, because I remember discussing with Captain Fritz at that time that I didn't think my testimony would be much benefit to the prosecution on that, or if it would be admissible because of the fact I had not warned Ruby of his constitutional rights.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that conversation?
Mr. SORRELS. That was the same time I was talking to Mr. Wade at his office. This is when the trial of Ruby was actually in progress.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Fritz in the office?
Mr. SORRELS. He was in and out of there. He had walked in and walked out. And I may have mentioned to him that--the fact that there was other officers there besides Dean and myself. And I told Mr. Wade in Dean's presence that certain things that Mr. Wade had asked me about, about Ruby saying that he had been--I think somebody had been thinking 3 days about shooting this fellow--that I heard no such statement, that I had left when I got the information I wanted. In other words, when I was questioning Ruby, as I recall it, nobody was asking him any questions except me, and when I got through I left.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you find out that Dean and Archer had said or were going to say that they heard Ruby say that he had intended to kill him 3 days before?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't know that Archer said that--I don't remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Dean--when did you learn that?
Mr. SORRELS. When Mr. Griffin asked me over the telephone if certain statements were made, and I told him, in conversation with him, the statements that Ruby had made to me, and he asked me if certain other statements were made, and I said not to my knowledge, "I don't remember anything like that," and one of them was about whether or not Ruby came down the ramp, and I told him at that time I didn't recall that statement having been made, and I didn't believe that statement was made in my presence.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said in the interview with Wade you told him you did not hear Ruby say that he had formed the intent to kill Oswald on Friday.
Mr. SORRELS. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. I am sorry.
Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't hear that. Ruby didn't say that. I told Wade that.
Mr. HUBERT. You did tell Wade that? Did Wade ask you that?
Mr. SORRELS. He asked me if certain statements were made, and I told him no, not in my presence.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had not heard of that even until Wade brought it to your attention?
Mr. SORRELS. No--not that part. The thing that Mr. Griffin was asking me, I think, as I recall it, was about the ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. Wade asked you did you hear Ruby say, "I intended to kill him since Friday night," and your answer was "No; I didn't"
Mr. SORRELS. No; I didn't hear it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Griffin mention in the telephone conversation he had with you statements allegedly made, or knowledge allegedly in the possession of Dean in regard to what Ruby had said?
Mr. SORRELS. I remember specifically there was a statement about him coming down the ramp. I remember that. And it seems that--I wouldn't be positive about that, but it seemed like there was something else that Dean was supposed to have said in my presence, and I told him no I didn't hear anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. I had thought you said that you told Wade that you had not heard Dean say any such thing. But he asked you?
Mr. SORRELS. He asked me. No--you see, he had talked to Dean beforehand, you see, about this. And I never had talked to Dean. As a matter of fact, I had not seen him.
Mr. SMITH. I might say it was my impression at one time that Mr. Sorrels said or indicated that in his conversation with Mr. Griffin, this question about Ruby having premeditated this for 3 days came out in this conversation with Griffin. At least I got that impression. But do I understand it now to be clarified that that particular point did not come out in your conversation with Griffin?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't think on the telephone conversation at that time.
Mr. SMITH. It came out in your conversation with----
Mr. SORRELS. With Wade.
Mr. SMITH. With Wade?
Mr. SORRELS. That is right. But I think--can this be off the record?
Mr. HUBERT. I would rather it go on.
Mr. SORRELS. All right. We will have it on the record. I have had other conversations with Mr. Griffin subsequent to that time, and personally when he was there at Dallas, in which I believe that there was some question about that statement. But as I recall it now, the first conversation over the telephone was specifically about the ramp incident. And I remember him emphasizing that. And I recall if such a statement was said I don't remember it, and I just don't believe it was said in-my presence.

Mr. HUBERT. In regard to the conversation with Mr. Griffin in Dallas, do you recall a conversation which I think I can specifically state would have been on the morning of Wednesday, March 25---that is to say the morning after Dean had been deposed. And let it be noted that Dean was deposed on the night of March 24. Do you remember a conversation with Mr. Griffin about what Dean had said then, and that you then told Mr. Griffin what your version of it was, and had in fact--he asked you to prepare a memorandum or something for him, so that there would be a record of what he had told him?
Mr. SORRELS. Along about this same thing?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, about this same matter, revolving around Dean and Dean's testimony about what Ruby had said.
Mr. SORRELS. I remember that there was a conversation. It seems like I do have a recollection. It slipped my mind. But since you mention something about a memo--and you left rather suddenly, Mr. Griffin, as I recall it, right after that.
Mr. HUBERT. That is on the 27th? The question is--you have not written a memo?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any reason why?
Mr. SORRELS. No. As a matter of fact, it Just slipped my mind, I guess, because I cannot recall now just exactly what the memo was. But since he mentioned that, it seems I do recall something about something I told him, and he said, "Write me a memo about it."
Mr. HUBERT. Was Inspector Kelley present during your interrogation of Oswald on Sunday morning for about 15 or 20 minutes, I think you said?
Mr. SORRELS. I don't believe so. Me might have been. But I don't recall that he was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have already ,testified that you and Mr. Kelley went to Mr. Batchelor's office after Oswald left on Sunday morning.
Mr. SORRELS. It is my recollection that we did go there together.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody else there?
Mr. SORRELS. If we didn't, I met him up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody else there?
Mr. SORRELS. At the interview?
Mr. HUBERT. No, when you left, when Oswald left to go down to the basement, you testified that you went with somebody, I think it was Tom Kelley--went into Batchelor's office and looked out to watch the scene.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that was Tom Kelley there. Was anyone else there?
Mr. SORRELS. There was a number of officers around there.
I don't recall who all was there. I just don't recall who all was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how many officers or detectives were in Fritz' office after Ruby had shot Oswald and had been brought up to Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't. There was a number of them around there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection that Dean was taken to escort you up to Captain Fritz' office?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, I remember Dean went up the elevator with me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any comment that Dean made in Wade's office?
Mr. SORRELS. The only comment that I can remember that he made is when Mr. Wade asked me if certain things were said by Ruby when I was talking to him in the jail on the morning of November 24, when Dean was there, and I told him no, that that statement was not made in my presence, I did not recall any statement like that. And Dean said, "Well, maybe it was. after you left." And I said, "Well, if it was--if the statement was made, it would have had to be after I left, because I don't recall any statement like that."

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out how Wade or Curry or the police found out about what Dean ultimately said?
Mr. SORRELS. Will you read ,that question again?
Mr. HUBERT. I said, did you ever find out how Wade and/or the police found out themselves what Dean ultimately testified to?
Mr. SORRELS. No, I don't know anything about that--unless it is in the court records down there in his testimony at the trial. Now, whether or not they had talked to him before what his testimony would be, I could not say about that, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Wade or anyone else ever ask you to identify the two uniformed officers?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever consult with any of your superior officers in your own service in regard to Wade's request that you testify?
Mr. SORRELS. I told Inspector Kelley that I might get involved in this thing, and he said, "Well, if you are subpenaed you will just have to testify what you know about it."
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't make a written report?
Mr. SORRELS. No, sir; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was FBI Agent Hall present during the Fritz' interview?
Mr. SORRELS. I couldn't say. I don't think I know Agent Hall if he walked in the door. I don't recall ever having met him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear Ruby say, "You all won't believe this, but I didn't have this planned, and I couldn't have done it better if I had planned it," or something to that effect?
Mr. SORRELS. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now----
Mr. SORRELS. I don't recall any statement like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Stern is going to take over, and I am going to ask him to handle the identification of your notes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state that for the limited purpose of having Agent Sorrels identify three sets of documents I am going to ask a series of questions of Agent Sorrels.
Mr. Sorrels, I want to hand you a Xerox copy of a document which is a part of our files, and numbered Commission No. 354, and is your Secret Service serial 1,007, consisting of four pages, which you have previously identified, and Mr. Hubert has marked "Deposition of Forrest Sorrels, Washington, D.C., May 6, 1964," and signed Leon D. Hubert.
I have added the additional designation "Exhibit 1," on the first page of this four page exhibit. I want you to look at that and tell me if that is in fact the same exhibit you identified previously as I have described it.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir; it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me hand you what I have marked for the purpose of identification as deposition of Forrest Sorrels, May 6, 1964, Washington, D.C. This exhibit consists of four different pages which I have numbered consecu-tively Exhibits 2-A, 2- B, 2-C, and 2-D, and purports to be a Xerox copy of notes that you made of the interview that took place with Jack Ruby in Captain Fritz' office at 3:15 on November 24, 1963.
Would you examine Exhibits 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D and compare them with the pages of your notebook which you have referred to previously in the deposition, and tell us if that is a true and exact copy of all of the notes that you have that pertain to the 3:15 interview with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked for the purpose of identification deposition of Forrest Sorrels, May 6, 1964, Washington, D.C., which is a document consisting of three pages, which I have numbered consecutively Exhibit 3-A, Exhibit 3-B, Exhibit 3-C. This exhibit purports to be a Xerox copy of notes that you took at an interview with Jack Ruby in the fifth floor jail cell shortly after Ruby shot Lee Oswald on November 24. I want you to compare these exhibits to pages which you have testified to previously are in your notebook, and tell me if Exhibits 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C are true and exact copies of those pages which appear in your notebook?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, they are. But there is portions that do ,not pertain to the interview with Ruby in the Dallas 0ity Jail on the morning of November 24, 1963--but certain portions happen to be on the same page as the notes made at that time were made.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 3-A, would you te11 us if that portion which pertains to Ruby---the Ruby interview in the jail cell, and appears on that page, follows consecutively from some point on that page?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, from about the center of the page, below a wavy line drawn across it, continuing on the second page, marked Exhibit 3-B, and the third page marked Exhibit 3-C, down to the lower portion ending with "deceased mother."
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 3--A, would you read the first two lines on Exhibit 3-A that consist of the notes taken at your interview with Ruby in the fifth floor jail cell?
Mr. SORRELS. "Chicago, 3-25-1911, Jack Ruby (Rubenstein), Entertainment, Carousel Club. Had business closed for 3 days."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let me hand you again Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if that is a true and accurate copy, to sign your name on the first page of that exhibit.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sign your name, then, on the first page of the exhibit?
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 2-A, B and C, and D, and ask you if that is a true and accurate copy to sign your name on the first page of Exhibit 2-A.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you, Mr. Sorrels, Exhibit 3-A, B, and C, and ask you the same question with respect to that, and ask you to do the same thing.
Mr. SORRELS. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let the record reflect that I am putting my initials, BWG, on pages 2-A, 2-B, 2-C, and 2-D. Let the record reflect I have done the same thing with pages 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Smith, are there any questions you would like to ask Mr. Sorrels at this stage of his deposition, to clarify any points on the record?
Mr. SMITH. Yes, just with respect to one point.
Mr. STERN. Please go ahead.
Mr. SMITH. Mr. Sorrels, you testified that in your interview with Jack Ruby in the jail, you did not warn him of his constitutional rights. Was this due to oversight on your part?
Mr. SORRELS. No, it was not.
Mr. SMITH. Will you state, then, the reason why you did not do so?
Mr. SORRELS. My purpose in getting to Jack Ruby and talking to him as quickly as I did was to determine whether or not he was involved with anyone else in connection with the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, and also to determine whether or not Jack Ruby had any connection or association with Lee Harvey Oswald. I did not warn him of his constitutional rights, because insofar as I was concerned at this particular interview, my conversation with him-was not--strike was not--had no bearing insofar as the murder case against Jack Ruby was concerned.
My purpose was trying to obtain information for my service to determine whether or not there were others involved in this case that would be of concern to the Secret Service in connection with their protective duties of the President of the United States and the Vice President.
Mr. STERN. Is there anything else, Mr. Smith, you would like to cover?
Mr. SMITH. No. Thank you.
Mr. STERN. Mr. Sorrels, you have had a lengthy session here today. If it is convenient for you, I would prefer to carry on that part of it that I am interested in tomorrow morning, rather than to try to finish late today. Would that be convenient for you?
Mr. SORRELS. That is satisfactory for me, yes.
Mr. STERN. Fine. Why don't we suspend now and resume in the morning.