TESTIMONY OF DIAL DUWAYNE RYDER RESUMED beginnign at XIH234
The testimony of Dial Duwayne Ryder was taken at 7:40 p.m., on July 23. 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Street's, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER. Will you stand and raise your right hand, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. I believe this is the third time that we have met and I have advised you previously of the nature of the Commission's work and you are familiar with the kind of problems that we have?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are aware of your rights to have an attorney if you want to--we have already discussed that previously, as I recall, and you know who I am, and, of course, you are Dial Ryder and you work at the Irving Sports Shop, and we have had previous testimony concerning the possibility that Lee Harvey Oswald may have had some work done on his rifle in your sports shop.
When I talked to you previously, I asked you if I recall correctly about any conversations that you might have had with a newspaper reporter from The Dallas Times Herald; do you recall me asking you about that?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; I do.
Mr. LIEBELER. And my recollection is that you told me that you had not talked to any newspaper reporters from The Dallas Times Herald in connection with the story that appeared in that newspaper on November 28, 1963?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And specifically you had said that you had not talked to a newspaper reporter on the morning of November 28, 1963, although you did say that on that morning, sometime around about 7:30 a newspaper reporter did call you from The Dallas Times Herald and told you that he wanted to talk to you about this whole situation and you refused to talk to him?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And You hung up the telephone and as I recall, you testified that you then took the receiver off the hook, making it impossible for any other calls to come into your telephone; is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you were interviewed by the FBI again on May 18, 1964, and you told them that same story; is that correct?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Is that in fact correct?
Mr. RYDER. That's right. It sure is.
Mr. LIEBELER. I want to advise you of the fact that we have located the newspaper reporter who supposedly talked to you that morning and his name is Hunter Schmidt, Jr., and that he has testified that he came to work at The Dallas Times Herald that morning and had a lead on this story that he had gotten from an anonymous telephone call that some woman made to the FBI and one was made to a television station here in Dallas telling them that Oswald had had some work done in your sports shop and I think I previously asked you about this and you said you didn't have anything to do with those anonymous telephone calls; is that right?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Schmidt says that he started looking for your name which he got from somewhere, apparently in connection with the Dallas Police Department and tracked you down at your home and called you between 7:30 and 8 o'clock on the morning of November 28, 1963, and that apparently your wife answered the telephone as you were still asleep and you came to the telephone and you appeared to be sleepy and that he talked to you for an extended period of time, and that you gave him the information that subsequently appeared in the newspaper article on November 28, 1963, in The Dallas Times Herald.
Mr. Schmidt was advised when he testified that you had denied giving him
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this story, although you had admitted that some reporter had called you on the telephone that morning. Is the name Hunter Schmidt familiar to you at all?
Mr. RYDER. No; it's not.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not that was the particular newspaper reporter that called you that morning?
Mr. RYDER. I couldn't say definitely for sure---like I said--I told them I had no comment on it and hung the thing up.
Mr. LIEBELER. In addition to the fact that Mr. Schmidt has so testified, I have been advised that one of Mr. Schmidt's associates was sitting right there in the office at the time Schmidt called you and heard the entire conversation between Schmidt and yourself and he said that Schmidt did talk to you for an extended period of time, or to a person by the name of Dial Ryder, who gave him this information about the gun work being done at the Irving Sports Shop and he said he heard the whole conversation.
Mr. Schmidt has, during the course of his testimony, volunteered to take a polygraph examination on this whole question as to whether or not he talked to you that morning and as to whether or not you gave him the information about the gun ticket and about the three holes that were drilled in the rifle and all the other information that appeared in that newspaper story. I am not here to say myself who is telling the truth, because I don't know, but it is perfectly obvious that one of you is not telling the truth, either Mr. Schmidt or you. I don't know what reasons you would have for not telling the truth, and I don't know what reasons Mr. Schmidt would have for not telling the truth, but I wonder if on reflection and in view of the statements that I have just made to you, if you can ponder this whole question and perhaps refresh your recollection. I don't know whether you talked to this newspaper reporter or not, but in view of the fact that we have this other testimony, I wonder if it would in some way refresh your recollection that in fact you did talk to this man?
Mr. RYDER. No; like I said, the only people I talked to were Mr. Horton with the FBI and then the Dallas Police Department or the sheriff's department--is the only ones I talked to about this, until, like I told you--the CBS reporters came out and we made the television deal after radios and everything got the thing and then we thought we had it straightened out with them, but as far as that morning, I didn't talk to anybody over the phone about it except I said I had no comment and hung up the receiver and then took the receiver back off of the hook and went on about my business of sleeping on this Sunday morning.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know a woman by the name of Edith Whitworth?
Mr. RYDER. Let's see---there was a lady from the Washington Press.
Mr. LIEBELER. No; this is a woman who used to run a furniture shop in Irving, which is down on Irving Boulevard.
Mr. RYDER. No; I don't know her.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know whether Mr. Greener knows her?
Mr. RYDER. Now, he might--I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you know any woman by the name of Mrs. Gertrude Hunter who also lives in Irving and is a friend of Mrs. Whitworth's?
Mr. RYDER. No, sir; I don't know them.
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you aware of the fact that just down Irving Boulevard from the Irving Sports Shop, a block and a half or so west, there used to be another gunshop where a man carried guns?
Mr. RYDER. Well, there was a little place down there where he handled guns--I don't know whether--if he was able to work on them or not, but it was about two blocks down the street or a block and a half or something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER. Toward the west?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And do you know that there used to be a used furniture shop that was there?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; it's still there.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you didn't know the people that ran it?
Mr. RYDER. No; I didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt is sitting out here in the front office and I'm going to ask him to come in and have you two gentlemen discuss this problem, see if there is some way we can resolve this story on this telephone conversation.
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(At this point Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., entered the room.)
Mr. LIEBELER. I have brought Mr. Hunter Schmidt, Jr., into the room and Mr. Schmidt has previously been sworn as a witness and testified yesterday on this question. I introduce you to Mr. Dial Ryder.
Mr. SCHMIDT. Mr. Ryder, how do you do?
Mr. LIEBELER. As I have indicated to Mr. Ryder, Mr. Schmidt testified yesterday that on the morning of November 28, 1963, you came to work in your office at the Dallas Times Herald and received information of some sort that possibly Lee Oswald had had some work done on a rifle, on his rifle or a rifle, in some sports shops or gunshop in the outlying areas of Dallas. Would you tell us briefly what happened after that, Mr. Schmidt?
Mr. SCHMIDT. After I got the tip, I traced it down and thought it was Garland first and I looked it up in the phonebook--the city directory--and the usual sources that we go through--I looked-through and this Ryder was the only one that I could find, or apparently he was the one that said what I was looking for.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where did you get Ryder's name in the first place; do you know?
Mr. SCHMIDT. Well, it was from a tip around the police station. Now, I don't remember. I have been trying to remember where who specifically it came from, but it was one of the many we were getting at that time. As I said before, we had several different 'leads on different stories and that they were coming in pretty thick, so I don't really remember where I got the Ryder name, but it came from around the police Station, one of our boys covering this angle of the assassination, called in from down there that a Ryder was supposed to have mounted a scope on a rifle for a customer named Oswald, so I stared checking from there, and like I said yesterday, I thought at first it was Garland and I had to do it by a process of elimination.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you went through the city directory and you finally found it in the phone book?
Mr. SCHMIDT. I believe I used the phonebooks and I found this Ryder and I called him up.
Mr. LIEBELER. About what time in the morning?
Mr. SCHMIDT. Oh, 7:30 or 8--something like that. I come in at 7 o'clock and it may be a little after 8, but I estimate it was between 7:30 or 8, but it was early, and I called the Ryder and there was a woman answered the phone.
Then, apparently the Ryder I talked to, and I guess it's this same Dial Ryder, I'm not sure, but the Ryder I talked to apparently had to get out of bed, there was a little interval, and come to the phone, and the person I talked to sounded sleepy. He gave me the information I got and it was very matter of fact and I believe you used the term "cordial" yesterday. I guess---that would be it--he was not antagonistic, but he was very--just very conversational in the question and answer session and explanation, and he said he had a ticket with the name Oswald on it and that it could have been the Oswald. He said he didn't remember for sure what the face looked like with the Oswald ticket, but he under-stands--he said he understood that this Oswald had a very common face for this area and I asked about buying ammunition or how many time he came in. I think he was sort of vague on that--he wasn't sure how many times he had been in, and besides talking about the sighting the rifle and the boring of the holes, that was in essence what it was, what we had in the paper. I believe I explained to you about the boresighting bit.
Mr. LIEBELER. There was some conversation between you about that?
Mr. SCHMIDT. He mentioned the boresighting and I don't think I understood it fully and that might have been a lithe incorrect in the paper, but that was the only thing that this technicality bit about the boresighting.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Ryder, you have been siring here watching Mr. Schmidt and listening to his voice; does his voice seem at all familiar to you?
Mr. RYDER. Sure doesn't--not to me at all.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us what your recollection is of what happened on that morning?
Mr. RYDER Well, like I have said before, and it is in my testimony--the FBI has the same thing--the phone rang. It was roughly 7:30, I would say it was closer to 7:30 than it was 8, and the reporter asked me had I mounted the scope
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on the Oswald gun and I told him I had no comment and I hung up, I mean. I took the receiver off the hook and that's all I done and all I said here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, Mr. Schmidt, after listening to Mr. Ryder's voice, can you identify it as the voice you say you spoke to on the telephone that day, or are you unable to do it?
Mr. SCHMIDT. No; I couldn't honestly identify him by voice now. It was 6 or 7 months ago and I only talked to Ryder once.
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Ryder, do you know of any other Ryders out there in the area who would have any knowledge of this gun ticket at the Irving Sports Shop?
Mr. RYDER. Not that I know of--not that I know of.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, as I indicated to you, Mr. Schmidt has volunteered and requested a polygraph examination to try to clear this matter up, and I wonder if you have any suggestion that you think of as to how it might be done?
Mr. RYDER. Well, I'll take the thing if you want me to take it.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, I don't want to ask you to do it, but if you want to request it and assist the Commission in clearing this matter up, I think we could make arrangements. to have a polygraph examination administered to both of you.
Mr. RYDER. Well, I'm not one to volunteer for anything.
Mr. SCHMIDT. I am perfectly willing to, because I stand beside that story. I don't know this man personally, if this is the Ryder of the gun shop, the Irving Sports Shop, and the same one that identified himself that morning--that was the information I got from him and I don't have any reason to lie about it, you know, I get the same amount of pay, I don't get any extra money for that story and I didn't even get a byline for the story. I knew that it would be just part of a story. So, I feel like I am a professional with my business and I just don't like to be doubted.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember whether or not there was anybody else in your office at the time you heard this conversation that you had with Ryder?
Mr. SCHMIDT. There were several men around there but I'm not sure whether they recall this conversation or not or whether they were even paying any attention. There are a couple of men that sit right to my left and a couple to my right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, the Commission has followed the practice of due regard for the civil rights of the people who have been involved in this thing and it is not requesting anybody to take a polygraph examination, and it is not prepared to make an exception in this case for you, Mr. Ryder. If you want to volunteer to do so, the Commission will take it under advisement and decide what it wants to do, but it is not going to request you to do so, and I cannot even put myself in the position of even asking you to or urging you to or suggesting that you do so. That's entirely up to you.
Mr. RYDER. Well, like I said, I will take the thing if it boils down to that. Like I say, and I have contended all along, that I did not talk to anybody on Thanksgiving Day, that morning. I didn't talk to anybody. That was my day off.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with any other newspaper reporters--that afternoon, but of course, that day--which you said you wanted to enjoy as your day off, but' you did go over to the shop that afternoon and meet the television people, did you not?
Mr. RYDER. Right, that's after the story broke over the radio.
Mr. LIEBELER. And in the newspaper?
Mr. RYDER. Yes; and in the newspaper, and then we got with the CBS boys and made the little film that they wanted.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember talking to any newspaper reporters at any time the next day or the day after that about this whole story?
Mr. RYDER. Well, they were all over the place the next day---on Friday--Friday and Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you still take the position that you had nothing to do with the original story that came out and you never talked to the newspaper reporters prior to the time the story came out in The Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea where they got the story?
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Mr. RYDER. I still don't know--I kind of felt like where they got it was over the radio---originally---I don't know. The CBS boys said that they got it off of the Associated Press wires, is how they got it, or over the AP.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, it is not the ordinary practice, of course, for the Commission to advise witnesses what kind of an investigation it has made in connection with this thing, at least, not until the report comes out, but I think you ought to know that as a result of the existence of this gun ticket and the story that you told the FBI and the Commission, the FBI has attempted to find every Oswald in the whole Dallas and Fort Worth area and the surrounding area and it has found many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom have moved out of Dallas and Fort Worth, as to whether or not they ever had any work done in that gunshop, and you should know that none of them ever did, and you should also know, and I think you probably do by now, that Lee Oswald could not have had any scope mounted on the rifle that he used to assassinate the President in your shop, and in fact, I don't think you claim you did mount that particular scope?
Mr. RYDER. That's right. We have claimed that it wasn't that one. On the Monday after, well, it was the Monday of the funeral of President Kennedy, that Mr. Horton came out and I thought at that time I had it cleared with him that I hadn't mounted the scope on the gun he used to assassinate the President.
Mr. LIEBELER. That you had not?
Mr. RYDER. That we had not.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you weren't able to remember Lee Harvey Oswald's face as being the face of the man who had previously been in that shop: isn't that right?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you couldn't associate any specific gun or any specific man with that particular work ticket; isn't that right?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any possible suggestions as to where that work ticket could have come from if it appears, and it certainly does appear that no other Oswald came in there and there is no evidence of any sort to indicate that Lee Harvey Oswald ever had any other rifle than the one he used to assassinate the President, and he never brought that one in the sports shop?
Mr. RYDER. All I know is that we had the ticket laying on the workbench back there and I had written it up and completed the work on it and the gun had been picked up. Now, as to whether it was Lee Oswald, I couldn't positively identify him or if there was another one out there right now I could not identify anybody if they said they did bring it in.
Mr. LIEBELER. And to the best of your recollecttion, you wrote that gun ticket sometime in the early part of November; is that right?
Mr. RYDER. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you are certain that you wrote it up before November 22?
Mr. RYDER. Right.
Mr. LIEBELER. But you are not able to associate that particular ticket with any particular gun in your own mind?
Mr. RYDER. That's right.
Mr. LIEBELER. I also recall that when I asked you questions about this before, you indicated that possibly we could fix the date on which this ticket had been written because you had written it with a pencil and you said you remembered you had gone to Dallas on that particular day, and that you used a pencil to get some materials from a wholesale shop. Of course, the FBI, as you now know, has gone and has found out every day that you ever went to Dallas to get gun materials and asked you if you could identify the time and the date by reviewing this list of materials that you got from the wholesale house in Dallas and you weren't able to associate it with any particular day you used a pencil.
Mr. RYDER. Right; he had 2 or 3 days there that he showed me some copies--actually, he gave he some dates that I came to town and signed and there were 2 or 3 days there in that period that I had. Signed with a pencil, and it could have been that some of those days I had a pencil laying handy and I just picked it up rather than taking my pen out of my shirt.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would you be surprised if the Commission concluded, after this
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