TESTIMONY OF EILEEN KAMINSKY

The testimony of Eileen Kaminsky was taken on July 23, 1964, at the U.S. courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Our normal procedure. Mrs. Kaminsky, is for me to say a few words at the beginning by way of introduction and then to administer the oath to you. Then, we will go on with the questioning at that point. Now, so that the record is clear, I will state again that my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the general counsel's staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
This Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson which was issued in late November, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. The Commission has been directed to investigate and to evaluate and to report back to the President all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Under this resolution and Executive order, the Commission has authority to take testimony and to designate various members of its staff for the purpose of taking that testimony, and I have been designated to take your testimony here today. Our particular reason for calling you, of course, is to obtain what information we can in particular about your brother, Jack Ruby, and about the death of Lee Oswald, although if you have any information you can provide us on any of the subjects that we are concerned with, concerning the death of President Kennedy, we also would like any of that information.
I might first ask you if you received a letter from the Commission asking you to appear here?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you received that letter?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Sunday--well, we picked it up at the post office. We weren't home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I mentioned it is that under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive 3 days' notice before you appear for your testimony, and I take it from what you have said that that provision has been complied with. Do you have any questions before we start--before I start asking you questions?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any questions about what the proceeding is about?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you have any as we go along, just feel free to ask me. Would you raise your right hand then and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. KAMINSKY, I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Mrs. Eileen Kaminsky, E-i-l-e-e-n K-a-m-i-n-s-k-y.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now, Mrs. Kaminsky?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. 6724 North Talman, T-a-l-m-a-n, Chicago 45, Ill.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. July 11, 1917.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you born here in Chicago?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you the youngest child in the family?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have seven brothers and sisters; is that correct?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; four brothers and three sisters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were married?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; October 26, 1947.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And have you lived in Chicago all your life?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. All my life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you a few questions at the outset about your family and I don't know how much information you have on the subject since you are the youngest in the family, but you may--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I found that out. I didn't know so much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume that as a child and as an adult, you had occasion to talk to your mother and father about their background. Do you know, or have you heard in that fashion where your mother was born?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, I--it is a town in either Poland or Russia but I can't think of it. My mother has been gone 20 years, and we never really did talk that much, although I know I have heard the town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how many brothers or sisters your mother had?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don't--I really don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father; do you know how many brothers or sisters he had?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, he had one brother who passed away a few years ago. That was the only one I knew of, and my mother had--she did have a brother who just passed away a couple years ago, too; however, I don't know--I know she had a half- or step-sister at one time. As a matter of fact, she is still---one of the daughters of that half-sister is still living.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What was the half-sister's name?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, in Jewish--I didn't even know the English.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would that be in Jewish?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Hysura.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you spell that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they live?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, when I---I don't even remember her, it's so many years ago, even when my mother says--she was in her fifties. This woman I think was already in her eighties or something, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well, did your mother ever explain to you how she happened to have a half-sister?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. If she did, I don't remember. I don't really think we--at least, I never went into it too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any information about what your mother's father did, your maternal grandfather?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, there was some story that my mother's mother was supposed to have been some sort of doctor. In those days, I don't know what they considered a doctor, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was supposed to have been the doctor---
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother's father or your mother's mother?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't know. I don't know. [My maternal grandmother was supposed to have been the doctor.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did your mother talk about these things?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much. One of my sisters, or a couple of them, used to talk about it once in a while, but never a--not very often.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, you were born in 1917?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there came a time about 1921 when your family broke up. What became of you when Jack was put in a foster home?

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Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was also put in a foster home. I was in several. It's pretty vague to me, to be truthful, but I remember being in a couple of them, I think, until I was about 9 years old. Then, the family came together again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother and father visit you while you were in that foster home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. My mother, especially. My mother did; I don't remember about my father so much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why were all of the children put in foster homes at that time?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don't know about the older ones, but we younger ones were. The older ones may have been--I think I might have been around--you say 1921. I thought I was about six which would bring it to 1923. Now, say the sister next to Jack is about 8 years older than I am. She would have been 14--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Eva?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; right. I'm trying to think where. I know Earl. I remember Earl, one time, some farm of some kind: I guess Jack did, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a time in your life as a child that none of the children were living in the home with your mother?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. You mean not oven the older ones; is that it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't know. I imagine there might have been a time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during this period that you were in the foster home, what contact did you have with your other brothers and sisters?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Very little, if I remember. I think, maybe, it seems, you know, it's so long ago--I'm 47 now and it's a long time. It seems to me that occasionally I would see my sisters. I remember when I was young having measles, it seemed to me my sister came, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you know about your father at this point when you were in the foster home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, not too much. He lived apart.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that while you were in the foster home he was not living with your mother?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; that I--I know. I feel that is true.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and how old were you when you returned to the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember having a ninth birthday party and we were together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the whole family together at that point?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think everybody was home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have made it 1926?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your father living at home at that point?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; he wasn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was it before your father came back and lived in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, actually, he never did return under how shall I say--under friendly circumstances with my mother.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. There was a time when he came back because he was ill and then later, after she passed away, he came back. That's 20 years ago, he came back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He came back when he was ill?
Mr. KAMINSKY. Yes; there was a time when he was ill and he needed some attention. It's kind of vague in my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, prior to the time you went into the foster home, was your father living in the home then?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal recollection of it? I mean, when he came back.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don't remember that far back.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. When your father was ill, how long did he remain in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't know. This is all vague to me. I really don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Welt, during this period from the early 1920's until your father returned to the home, how often did you see him?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don't think I saw a great deal of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would that be? Would you see him once a month or once every 3 months or---
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Perhaps, more like once every 3 months. I mean I can't pin it down definitely, but it would be---
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of interest did he show in the children?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don't know how to answer that. He had a struggle taking care of himself. I am afraid--as a matter of fact, when the children were old enough, they tried to take care of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you explain the willingness of the children to take
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you explain the willingness of the children to take care of your father even though he apparently didn't do much taking care of you?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, he was our father. I guess it might all boil down to that, and we did have a---quite an affection for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We often thought if my mother hadn't been so emotional and--perhaps, things might have been different.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did your father show kindnesses towards you even though--when he wasn't living in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think he did towards the children; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things do you remember him doing?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, buying meat, clothes or shoes or things. In those days, it was difficult to obtain; depression days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he living when he wasn't living with your people?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. When he wasn't?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember vaguely him living with a--you would call it now the east side, around Halsted Street or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he living with someone else?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, he usually had his own little just probably a room and a bathroom and a kitchen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. There might have been times that he'd have you know, a man friend, well, a man, or a man his age.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some sort of a date as to when he returned to the home on a permanent basis?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think it's perhaps, after my mother passed away. She passed away in April of 1944, so it was some time after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Do you have any information about his relationship with your brother, Jack, before he moved back into the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Jack always felt kind of sorry for him, you know, being--his being alone. Jack is a very compassionate person. He always feels sorry for the underdogs, so to speak.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack's attitude towards your mother?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was very fond of her. As a matter of fact, I often feel he was her favorite child.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you feel that way?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I remember once she was very ill and she had given him some money to hold for her. She thought she was dying, and I think it was around $15, just--I don't exactly know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. He wanted to make her feel good so he says, "Ma," he says, "gee, you have got $85 here.
"Well, she recovered and she wanted her $85 back, and I said, "Jack, what are you going to do?"
He says, "I am going to give it to her." He says, "It made her feel good, didn't it," and that was one of his expressions. It made her feel good or made him feel good, just so it makes you feel good.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. This was--well, I don't think it was too long before she passed away. I'd say, perhaps, that same year because she had been pretty sickly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Well now, there was a time in the 1930's when your mother had considerable psychiatric difficulties and she was hospitalized?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack at that time give the family any help with her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. What kind of help do you mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did he---did he come back; did he take an interest of any sort in--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I really don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think when she was hospitalized, I think we were all together then, if I am not mistaken.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From the time that you returned from the foster home until you were married in 1947, did you live all of the time in the family home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, during that period, do you recall the times that Jack lived in the home with you?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can't recall the specific time but he did live home quite a bit of the time, and then there were times when he--when he didn't live home, when he lived with a boy friend or when he was old enough.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was out on his own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after he reached adulthood, well, let's take it from, say, 1929, when he would have been 18 until he went to California in 1933, do you recall how much of the time Jack lived in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. When he went to California, you mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. From 1929 to 1933; that is, from the time he was about 18 until the time he went to California in 1933, how much time did he spend in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can't recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, do you remember when he came back from California?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. It's rather vague.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know when he was out in California, though, he took care of my sister, Eva, out there. She and her son.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your sisters, which ones--which one would you say has the most information about the family background; who would be most familiar with it?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think, perhaps, any of the three because, you see, the boys are between me and the sisters so there is enough age there for them to--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Have that difference.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Eva--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eva might and Marion might. Probably, Eva would have as much as anybody, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any recollection of your father living in the home with your mother until the time that he got sick and returned for a little while?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, no; and I--you know, I am a little vague even about that time when he was sick. I am trying to think when--whether there was a time when--actually, a wall collapsed on him. You know, he had been a carpenter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I don't know whether it was that time or some other time. It is all very hazy; very hazy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, it sounds to me from what you are telling me that from

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the time Jack would have been 10 or 12; that is, 1921 or 1923, until he became, an adult, there was no real father in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. That's right, and even afterwards, I mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. So that all the boys really grew up without a father in the home--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that right? Does that seem accurate to you?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had occasion to visit Jack in the period from the time he went to Dallas until he shot Lee Oswald?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I Was out there twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you there?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I was there this last August for the--the last 2 weeks in August with my children, and I was there the preceding year for a week and then Jack even stopped in Chicago last August, just a week I believe, before I went down there just between planes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to Dallas on the first occasion?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was kind of run down and nervous, frankly, I wanted to get away from the children a little bit and I didn't know where to go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I don't remember if I called him or asked him if he'd mind if I'd come down, but whatever it was, he welcomed me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I stayed a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down alone?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. The first time; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you stay with Jack or with one of your other brothers and sisters?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I stayed with Jack that time, all the time. This last trip, I stayed primarily with Eva because I had the two little girls and she had more not necessarily should I say "more time," but because of all the women being together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How old are your children?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eight and 11 1/2.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They are both girls?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the first time that you went down, why was it that you decided to stay with Jack rather than Eva or Sam?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I--frankly, I was--felt closer to Jack. I mean Jack has always been wonderful to me and not that I used to go to him with problems, I never had such problems, but always has been very understanding, considerate, and I just thought it would be more to my liking to stay with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did you have a chance to meet any of his friends on that occasion?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, as a matter of fact, that week, this master of ceremonies who reads minds--I forget his name--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill DeMar?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes. He was staying there, and I asked Jack what he was doing there and--this is Jack. He says--well, he says, "He needs the money to send to his wife and kids, so why should he pay a hotel room, so I let him stay here." And Jack fed him, too, and he was staying there that week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Where was Jack living at that time?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think it was the on Monterey--Monterey or Ewing, it seems to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was It the same building that he was in at the time he shot Lee Oswald?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No. Wait, yes; I think it was. I think it was the same apartment. They all look alike, you know, these new modern structures, and we would drive up--
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are not sure, it is better to say that you are not sure.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I am not sure.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, on the second occasion when you were down there last August, how did--how did you happen to decide to go down on that occasion?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, the kids had had a bad experience at day camp and were very restless and I thought I'd get them away for awhile.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And so I called Jack one day and asked him, "Do you want us?" He says, "Sure, come down," and we did. We don't need any reservations so we did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call Jack or did you call Eva?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, I called Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you lived at Eva's house?
Mr.s: KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain on that occasion?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We were there about 2 weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you visit Jack in his apartment at that time?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, yes, we did; and the last 2--the last 2 days we stayed with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we he was going to drive us home to the--to the train, and we well, first we were going to go to dinner and he was going to take us back to the apartment, and we were going to leave the next day, and instead we spent 2 days there.
As a matter of fact, the reason we stayed over, Eva and Jack had an argument and he asked me to stay over. [He believed I might make peace between them.] He felt badly and, as a matter of fact, the minute it was over, we never did get to dinner, we went back to his apartment. He had me call her and see how she was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the argument about?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, someone had called him person to person and she had accepted the call and it was for him and so he became angry and then, she asked him if he knew somebody, and he didn't, and she kept repeating the name, and she sort of riled him up, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I myself would have become angry. She kept repeating it, "Don't you know so-and- so? Don't you know so-and-so?"
I can't think of the name. He said, "No, I don't"; and then, quite a few words and an argument. As a matter of fact, he pushed her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He pushed her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hurt her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don't think he actually, he practically pushed her out of the car. I was a little frightened, you know, myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did this occur?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. This was on the way to the restaurant. It was---I think it is a Thursday night, about the end of August. That is all I would know.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he just practically pushed her out of the car; and then, afterward after it was over, I stayed in the car because my luggage was there. Self-preservation is instinctive, and we got back to his apartment and he had me call her and ask her if she was all right and---because she had to take a cab back to--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, did you remain on for another 2 days?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I think that was Thursday night. I stayed Friday and I think I left-Saturday or Sunday. I am not positive, one of the 2 days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were when you were in Jack's apartment did you notice---what could you tell us about the apartment? How was it maintained?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, it was a nice, modern apartment and a cleaning woman every week or so. Of course, a bachelor will let things go. He cooked; he made dinner for us and he let my children help him mix up something. They were very happy. It is something I don't let them do.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he was very wonderful to them.
As a matter of fact, I believe it was that Friday, it was extremely hot. It simply was 107 and there was a swimming pool attached, you know, with the apartment.
They wanted to go swimming and I asked him if he would take them because I don't swim, and I didn't even have a bathing suit and he wouldn't.
He said, "No." He said, "Some child was drowned, I believe, in a private swimming pool somewhere, not too long before that and they--no children were allowed in the water unless they are with a lifeguard."
I think most of .these apartments are rented to adults and I really wanted--I said, "Well, you are a good swimmer." I said, "You will watch them."
He said, "No, I wouldn't take that chance."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice whether he had any books or magazines or things like that in the apartment?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, nothing outstanding, maybe pictures of strippers, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Paperback books, did he have any of those?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No. I--I mean--I didn't notice any. I don't think Jack read that type of thing.
I know he read this book, Exodus, by Leon Uris.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How do you know that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, because he sent the book to my sister, Marion, and she gave it to me. He bought--it was so wonderful I think once he called just to tell us how wonderful it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he send that to Marian?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, a couple of years ago, I think, when it first came out. As a matter of fact, I believe I have the book at home now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was very much impressed by it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other book's that he sent you?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, not that I can recall, but I remember that because he spoke about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you remember his calling you on Friday--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. (continuing). November 22, after the President was shot?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember approximately when that was in the afternoon?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I couldn't tell don't remember exactly. I know it was after the President had--it had been announced that he had passed away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, maybe we can reconstruct it by my asking you first of all where you were when you first learned that the President had been shot?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I was in the kitchen giving my children some lunch. They had both been home from school because they both had colds and then, I suddenly turned on the radio about 1 o'clock, and I heard the radio say something, the President has been shot and I--I just couldn't believe my ears and so, I ran in to turn on the television and I felt if there were any truth to it, you know, we'd be able to see something--see an announcer and really hear it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And it was true, of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then, did you hear from Jack after that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. After the President--after, I guess, it was announced that he had died.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, the telephone records we have assembled indicate that he called you about 2 o'clock Dallas time which is--I guess it would be around 3 o'clock Chicago time.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, yes. I didn't know exactly, but when the FBI questioned me, they thought it might be anywhere from 1:30 to 3 o'clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You remember that telephone call?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes, I do, very well.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us--tell us how this call went. Jack--you picked up the phone and there was Jack.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. That's right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say and what did you say?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. He was crying to start off with. He said--he said, "Did you hear the awful news?"
And I said, "Yes," and he said, "Oh, my God, oh, my God."
He repeated it several times. He said, "What a black mark for Dallas," and then he said--
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said, "What a black mark"?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; Jack said, "What a black mark for Dallas." Then, he said--oh, he said, "Maybe I will fly up to be with you tonight." And I said, "Well, I don't think that is necessary."
You know, I knew he was upset. You see, my sister had just been home from the hospital with serious surgery less than a week and--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you talking about Eva?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Eva, yes. She had abdominal surgery and I knew there was no one to take care of her, you know. So I said, "Well, how is Eva?"
He says, "Oh she's terrible. When she heard this news, she's even worse."
I said, "You better stay there. I will call you tonight. Be at her apartment after 9, and I will call you tonight after 9."
Then, while I was talking to him, he said--I could hear that someone else was talking to him, and I said, "Well, who is that?"
He said, "It is the porter. There is another call for me. Alice returned my call." Alice Nichols is her name. I guess he said, "I'd call her at a time like that." He wanted to talk to people, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And so I didn't keep him on the phone too long but his voice was, you know, breaking all the time. Of course, I was--I was no help because I was in the same I felt terrible myself, you know.
And that night, I don't remember whether I called my sister Eva's apartment or she called me. We never did get it straight, but we did speak to one another, and I did ask for Jack and she said, "Well, he is at the temple. He went to temple that night," and I believe he also called my oldest brother that night, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was Jack supposed--were you going to call back for the purpose of talking to Jack or for the purpose of talking to Eva?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I was going to talk to beth of them. I figured he would be at her apartment that night and I could talk to both of them but as it happened, she said he left earlier to go to the temple.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you suggest to him in any way that he ought to take care of Eva or go over to see her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, yes; because I said--well I, you know, naturally, we both knew she had had the surgery.
As a matter of fact, she told us that while she was in the hospital, he came 15 times in 6 days and a woman, either in the next room or the next bed, said, "Your doctor has been here again."
She says, "Yes, he has." She never let on that Jack was her brother because, you know, having a nightclub, he would come in at irregular hours. So, yes; I felt he should stay with Eva because I figured---
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you say this to him--I am trying to find out if you actually told Jack that or if you don't remember, say you don't remember.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall receiving any telephone calls from Jack while Eva was in the hospital?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I--I recall receiving one. I believe it was just a day or two before she went. He asked me to send her some flowers.
I believe he called my sister Marion. He called us all, I believe. He said, "She was going in for surgery."
Mr. GRIFFIN. After you called Eva, what did you do that night? Did you go over to Hyman's house or did you stay home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I stayed home. As a matter of fact, Hyman came over for dinner that evening and that is one of the reasons--I don't know whether Eva

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called me or I called her. She was going to call at the house. We called it "the other house."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And I said to her, "Tell Hyman he left his glasses here." He had been there for dinner. He had had some throat surgery, just been out of the hospital a day and I remember he asked me to prepare some kind of foods for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Eva say to you when--when she talked to you on the telephone?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. She said--I remember this. I felt--she says, "You know, I feel worse about this than when Pa died," and we did because my father was 89, you know, and it [President Kennedy] was a man really in the prime of his life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If I understand your testimony, you talked with Eva Friday evening and some mention was made that Eva would call Hyman?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; she said something that she was going to call him and I said, "Well, don't forget to tell him he left his glasses at my house." I am sure it was that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We talked about this when' I was down in Dallas and she says, "Don't you remember I called you?" I says, "Well, I thought I called you." Of course, we could check it, I suppose, to see who called who.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the conversation that you have just related about Hyman and the glasses? This is something that you remembered on your own or did somebody have to remind you of that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think Eva reminded me. She said, "Don't you remember. to tell"--Well, we call him "Mess." It is a nickname "that he left his glasses." I says, "Oh, that's right." I mean, you know, it didn't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, originally, when you talked to Eva, did you have any recollection of the telephone conversation at all with Eva?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I didn't understand that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first talked with Eva.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; that night?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; when you later talked with her down in Dallas.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any recollection at all that you had--you are the one that called her or that you had talked with her?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Friday night?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes, yes. I knew I had talked because I remember distinctly the remark that she said, "Eileen, I feel worse about this than when Pa died."
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the remark about Hyman and the glasses was one that she had to remind you about?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, it came about because we didn't know who called who.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. When you talked to Jack on Friday afternoon, did he mention to you where he had been earlier that day?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't recall whether he---but I assume he was calling me from his club because as I say, I could hear another voice. He said it was his porter. I---
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't remember what he said about--
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of religious practices did your mother maintain in the home when you were growing up as a girl?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we weren't too religious. At least, I don't feel I had too much religious training or any training.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What training did you have?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I never went to--what you call--Hebrew school In those days, girls didn't. Now, today, it seems to be the fashion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We adhered to certain conservative Jewish principles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which ones in particular?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, observing the holidays as best as we could, you know,

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fasting on the high holidays. When we were younger, we did that more religiously than we do now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any practices maintained in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Friday was, more or less, of the holiday or our Sabbath, you know, Friday evenings, Saturday; and naturally, if we had jobs and had to work on a Saturday, we did, although orthodox people don't.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That's right. You didn't observe the Sabbath as the Orthodox Jews do?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother maintain two sets of dishes?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not--no; I don't remember that. We had many sets, pieces of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did your observance of the religious practices go beyond observing the high holidays?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, Friday was a special dinner as a rule. It was a little more elaborate, shall I say, and we did, in a sense, restrict ourselves to Saturday not doing housework.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, you are not supposed to do that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--did you observe any of the dietary laws at all in the home?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which ones?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, we didn't mix dairy foods with meat foods. Now, we would never serve milk while having meat on the table, you know, never do that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but that is--that is a different thing from keeping different sets of dishes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, in a sense, it is the same thing because one set of dishes would be used for dairy food and one set for meat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did your mother do that? Did your mother observe that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, I don't remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know, when I was old enough to notice, I didn't notice any separate dishes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did your mother--did your mother know how to read and write?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. She could sign her name but she couldn't read or write.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure she could sign her name?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I seem to remember her having done that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To what extent did she speak English?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Were you children all able to speak in Yiddish?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father; did he speak English?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, better than my mother but with a definite accent. We spoke a great deal in Jewish to him, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you want to tell us that might be useful to the Commission?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I wrote you that letter about Mrs. Tice. Was that ever checked out?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; we have interviewed her and I am going to take her testimony tomorrow down in Dallas.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Oh, are you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And about this Rufus Fayette, did you see that letter?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know that I saw that.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well now, the night before, the Thursday night, before the Friday that Officer Dean's testimony was so damaging, he had been released from the county jail in Dallas, I believe, that same day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Fayette?

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Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe it is Fayette or Layette. I asked Jack to--for his name. I didn't want to ask any of the policemen, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. So Jack--that's the name Jack gave me. He had operated the elevator there all the time during the selection of the jury and during the part of the trial that he was there for. And he called my sister Eva about 11 o'clock this Thursday night. I tried to figure back the date. I think I wrote it in a previous letter I addressed just to the Commission itself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And he said that this man who, I guess, he is a private detective or detective who takes the polygraph test, Sweatt, Allen Sweatt, had been riding in the evevator with him and Allen Sweatt said that, "Unless the State's attorney can drum or rook up some good witnesses for tomorrow, I am going walk Jack Ruby right out of this jail, because the State's attorney has lost the case." And it was the very next morning that Dean gave his testimony, if I remember correctly. I wasn't in the courtroom because I was supposed a witness so they didn't let me in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. So I found out--I don't know how we found out that he worked at the Southwest Automotive Parts. I don't know whether Jack found that out for me or not. I did ask Jack, and anyway, he did say he worked at some sort of automotive parts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We heard it was Southwest Automotive because that possibly--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you don't have any information that Sweat was aware of the witnesses--your suggestion, I take it, that until that Thursday night, nobody had ever heard of Officer Dean's testimony? Well, you don't know?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't know whether Sweat was in communication with the district attorney and had any idea what the district attorney might have had might have had Dean lined up as a witness for a number of days?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you don't have any information that Sweat knew at that point--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That the district attorney--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. But we knew--I mean I knew, that Dean would eventually testify because I believe, previously, there had been something in the papers about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think even previously, if I am not mistaken, he had said that Jack had told him that he planned to kill Oswald--oh, and incidentally, at the hearing, April 29, for the motion for the new trial, this Tom Alyea and Art Sinclair from, I believe it is channel 8 down there, I think, station WFAA, talked to us and Tom Alyea said he had just spoken to Dean in a corner and he said Dean said to him--"I didn't say Jack planned it." I said, "Jack said if given the opportunity to kill Oswald, I would do it."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. We have already--we have interviewed Alyea and that is A-l-y-e-a.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. That is what--
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't recall right now what he told the FBI or anything but they did interview him. Did Mrs. Tice contact you or did she contact one of your sisters?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. She called Eva's apartment and I answered the phone. I stayed with Eva down there. I don't remember just how long after the verdict, but she said that she didn't call previously because she had been in an automobile accident and as a matter of fact, she wasn't supposed to be in Parkland Hospital that Friday, you know. She had--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Mrs. Tice then; in person?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Tom Alya and Art Sinclair took Eva and me out there because we had no car.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. And they were nice enough to take us out there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. She said it was Jack--she said later she saw him on the television and heard his voice and she says--she knows that it was Jack that she saw outside of Parkland Hospital. I believe I wrote you these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; did you talk with Jack about that?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. We asked him once oh, even before the no, it couldn't have been before the trial because she called afterwards, and he couldn't remember to be very truthful. He couldn't remember being at Parkland.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He's denied that he was at Parkland. I mean, not simply out of memory. He's flatly denied that he was at Parkland Hospital.
Did this Mrs. Tice indicate to you that she had read any of the newspaper articles that had been previously written by a man who claimed he saw Jack at Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know, there is a newspaper reporter--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Is there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who wrote an article, a couple of days after Oswald was shot, and this newspaper reporter said that he saw your brother at Parkland Hospital. Now, did Mrs. Tice indicate that she had read that article?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; she didn't, but she did say that--that when Jack asked and--"Can someone donate a kidney or can a kidney be donated?" A man answered, "Yes, Jack," as though, you know, he knew Jack. He said, "But what nut would do it?" And Jack said, "I will." She thought this man might have known Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she have her automobile accident?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I think she said in January.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did she tell you?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I'm not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you why she didn't make this information known before January?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe she said--well, the first thing, she didn't even want her husband to know anything about it, even when she called me. She asked me if I did call; to call before 1 o'clock, because her husband comes in from work then, 1 in the afternoon and she felt he wouldn't want her to get involved. And I---I believe I am not positive but she never dreamt that the verdict would be such, you know. She felt that a verdict like that was so--
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a woman did she appear to be?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I believe in her middle forties. I thought, when I spoke to her on the phone, that she was a little, old woman, you know. Her voice seemed very weak, and I thought she might be a woman in her seventies. I was very much surprised to see her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about her which would indicate to you that she might not be reliable?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; as a matter of fact, she told me that she had worked, or been in charge of the juvenile home down in Dallas for quite awhile, superintendent or something, some fairly high capacity.
So I thought that--I took this into consideration. I thought her a person of some responsibility and, as a matter of fact, I believe she adopted several of the children from there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She is married?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Wilma Tice, W-i-l-m-a.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that she said about her job at the children's home in Dallas?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. That she had--I just don't know what capacity she was employed there, but it sounds to me she was with someone----of the head of the department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Juvenile department, children who are abandoned or orphans who are brought there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you speak with her?

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Mrs. KAMINSKY. I spoke several times to her. She called that one time and spoke quite awhile, and I believe I called her, and then she called again, I believe, not too long ago. She's called Eve, Eva.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else did she tell you about her background of herself?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Not too much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you how she happened to go out to Parkland Hospital?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you whether she went alone or with somebody else?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I know that she didn't want her husband to know she had been there. That she mentioned. I guess she wasn't supposed to drive or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she have any children of her own other than the ones she claims she adopted?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don't believe so; I don't believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she actually tell you she had adopted children?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet her husband?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I didn't. We made it our business to get there and leave before 1.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she say whether or not she'd be willing to testify to this, at the trial?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; she would. She did. Another incident, Mr. Griffin, I can't recall Jack's cleaning woman's name--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Pitts.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Pitts, Clara?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Elnora.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Elnora, yes. I believe it was she. I don't know how this came about, but we learned that while she Was waiting to give her testimony, that he saw and heard the two---two of the doctors that the State was calling upon after her--now, I don't know--I was trying to figure out if they were Forrester or McKay, I just don't remember, to be truthful, that they were writing down about what they were going to say, and one of them said too, as a matter of fact, I believe we have a reporter's affidavit or what do you call it, notarization---she gave a statement and signed it.
One of them said to the other, "You are not to say that. I will tell you what to say," and these doctors followed her on the stand or in the not too far beyond her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't--she didn't tell you what it was that they were talking about?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. About what they were going to say?
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there was no--there was no statement by them that neither one of them was to state that they weren't--there is no suggestion that they were concealing any evidence or anything, is there? I It was just a question of who was going to say it?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; there was---one made the statement, "You are not to say that. Here, this is what you are to say."
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don't--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. In other words, he was changing the other one's opinion or statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don't know what it was that they were specifically--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically they had in mind?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; but I believe a statement was taken from--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Pitts?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Mrs. Pitts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. Did Eva mention this at all?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don't know.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I know a statement was taken because I remember Eva said she needed $85 or $38 to pay for it.

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Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know about any telephone calls that your brother Jack made on the Saturday night before he shot Lee Oswald?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No, I don't. Someone did say--well, about phoning Al Gruber. I don't know when that was, though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know about any telephone calls that he made to a man by the name of Brock Wall?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; never heard the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the weekend of November 22d to 24th did Jack make any telephone calls to you other than the one he made on Friday?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him again after--
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Friday call?
Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; that was the only one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; I don't think I have any more questions. I will ask you once more if there is anything else that you think you'd like to tell us.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. There's been so much. I--I can't--if you can help me, you know, pertaining to something, I mean, of course, you have asked me all you want to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I can't--
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, let me then say that if there is anything that should come to your mind after this is over, you know, we welcome anything you have to tell us. We'd be happy to hear from you. Either you can write us or call us or do what you think is best.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. The only thing that does come to my mind--I don't know--just--it must have been during the trial, when we were up to see Jack, because he said, "The policemen are lying." I mean I don't know if that's--but he did tell us that. He told us that many times. "I am telling you the policemen are lying, policemen are lying."
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you when he decided he was going to shoot Lee Oswald?
Mr. KAMINSKY. No; no, no. I'm sure that he hadn't even thought about it because Eva says Saturday afternoon he said to her, "We will go to Tippit's funeral," and she hadn't been out of the house from her surgery, and she thought, "Who wants to go to anyone's funeral. I don't know the man even though it's such a terrible thing." He said, "Well, aren't you going to go with me?" She says, "All right, I will go. I will go."
Here, he planned that for Monday. He evidently--it had been announced that the funeral would be on Monday, but I am sure he had no thought of--and I say, when he called, he says, "Maybe I will fly up to be with you," you know, meaning the family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I discouraged him. You can't imagine how many regrets I have about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; well, thank you very much.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. You're welcome.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Glad that you could come in and see us.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. I hope I have been of some help.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well I think you have.
Mrs. KAMINSKY. OK.