Testimony Of Mrs. Katherine Ford

The CHAIRMAN - The Commission will be in order.
Mrs. Ford, I would just like to read to you a short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting.
I think you have had a copy of it but I will just read it for the record.
Mrs. FORD - Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - The purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of Mr. and Mrs. Declan P. Ford and Mr. Peter Paul Gregory. The Commission. has been advised that Mr. and Mrs. Ford made the acquaintance of the Oswalds shortly after their arrival in the United States in June of 1962, and that Mrs. Marina Oswald lived in the Ford home on two different occasions in November 1962, and for a period following February 12, 1964.
The Commission has also been advised that Mr. Gregory was contacted by Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald shortly after Mr. Oswald's return from Russia as a result of which Mr. and Mrs. Oswald made the acquaintance of a large number of Russian-speaking people in the Dallas and Fort Worth area.
Since the Commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning Mr. Oswald, his associations and relations with others and any and all other matters relating to the assassination.
Would you please rise and be sworn, Mrs. Ford.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. FORD - I do.
The CHAIRMAN - You may be seated, Mr. Liebeler will conduct the examination.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mrs. FORD - My maiden name?
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.
Mrs. FORD - Katrina Evstratova.
Mr. LIEBELER - Where were you born, Mrs. Ford?
Mrs. FORD - Nova Tchkarsk.
Mr. LIEBELER - Could you tell us just briefly how you came to come to the United States, Mrs. Ford?
Mrs. FORD - How I came to the United States; I was in Germany during the war. I was taken there by Germans, not in concentration camps, but in labor camp, and after we were liberated by Americans I got acquainted with an American soldier and was married to him, and that is how I came straight to Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was this soldier's name that you married?
Mrs. FORD - Skotnicki.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you were married to him in about 1946?
Mrs. FORD - That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you subsequently divorced him?
Mrs. FORD - Approximately 4 years ago, a little over 4 years.
Mr. LIEBELER - I want to ask you a few questions about Mr. Skotnicki and some of the people that he knew.
Do you still have any friends that were your friends when you were married to Mr. Skotnicki?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; I would think, some neighbors, I would say that we would be still--we don't see together, acquaintances together with those friends but I am sure they are still friendly. He is still friendly with the same people as I am. I would say Campbells down on 6468 Lane, the old house still stands there I would think he would still be friendly with them, and I know them very well.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't continue to see Mr. Skotnicki in any way, do you?
Mrs. FORD - No, no; I have no reason for it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether or not Mr. Skotnicki has a friend by the name of John M. Grizzaffi? That is spelled G-r-i-z-z-a-f-f-i.
Mrs. FORD - I think that he is friends, yes. It is a neighbor across the street. He was friendly with that man.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you tell us just a little bit about Mr. Grizzaffi, if you know about him?
Mrs. FORD - I think he is in grocery business, that is what I know about him, and I believe, I wouldn't say he is busy in local politics but he is always talking about people he knows around town that are in politics, and that is about all I know. I was never very friendly with his wife and so I just know a little bit about him.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether Mr. Grizzaffi is a friend of Jack Ruby's?
Mrs. FORD - That I don't know. I was told by my son that Mr. Grizzaffi knew Ruby.
Mr. LIEBELER - Your son told you that?
Mrs. FORD - My young son.
Mr. LIEBELER - What is you son's name?
Mrs. FORD - My son's name is Gary.
Mr. LIEBELER - How old is he?
Mrs. FORD - Twelve.
Mr. LIEBELER - He is a son by Mr. Skotnicki?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is he living with you and Mr. Ford?
Mrs. FORD - He lives with me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether Mr. Skotnicki knew the Oswalds?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't think he did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether he knew anything about the Oswalds?
Mrs. FORD - Unless something was told by my son or something, by children. I don't think he knew them personally.
Mr. LIEBELER - You yourself didn't have any conversations with Mr. Skotnicki about the Oswalds?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - I want to go through a list of names which I will go through fairly quickly and ask you if you recognize any of these names or if you know any of the people.
Do you know a gentleman by the name of George Senator?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't.
Mr. LIEBELER - How about a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Andrew Armstrong?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know a lady by the name of Karen Bennett?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Bruce Carlin?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know a man by the name of Roy William Pike?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - How about Larry Crafard?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - You yourself don't know Jack Ruby in any way?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Does Mr. Ford know Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't thing so; no.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know a lady by the name of Earlene Roberts?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Mary Bledsoe?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Bertha Cheek?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - John Cutter.
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - How about Mr. and Mrs. A. C. Johnson?
Mrs. FORD - A. C. Johnson, I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know of any connection between Mr. Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't know. I don't know that they knew each other.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would you tell the Commission, Mrs. Ford, how you first met the Oswalds?
Mrs. FORD - We were invited there after lunch, the Oswalds had a luncheon at Anna Meller's house, and we were invited after luncheon to meet them, and that was our first contact with them.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell me when that was, approximately?
Mrs. FORD - I would say it was approximately at the end of August of 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER - Will you tell us who was at the luncheon?
Mrs. FORD - I believe there was Mr. and Mrs. Ted Meller and George Bouhe and the Oswalds and ourselves, I believe that is all I remember.
Mr. LIEBELER - Who first told you about the Oswalds? Did you hear of them the first time that you came to that luncheon or had you heard of them before?
Mrs. FORD - I had heard of them maybe a couple of weeks before from Mr. George Bouhe, I believe, who had told us that there was a young Russian girl came to Fort Worth and the man was out of a job, and that was the reason for us to try to help them. And she had a baby and so forth.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything else about the Oswalds?
Mrs. FORD - No; he was just telling that the man was having a very hard time finding a job because the last job he had was in Minsk or so.
Mr. LIEBELER - He told you that Mr. Oswald had been in Russia?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; he did. He told us about that he was in Russia and decided to come back and he brought a Russian wife with him who didn't speak English and had a tiny baby and both were having a very hard time at the moment.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about the circumstances under which Mr. Oswald went to Russia?
Mrs. FORD - No; nothing like that was discussed.
Mr. LIEBELER - At the luncheon at which you and your husband, and Mr. and Mrs. Meller--
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And Mr. Bouhe were present--
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was said at that time?
Mrs. FORD - At the time we were present, actually, I was only interested in economic conditions of Russia at the moment, for me to compare them with the time I was living there, and they were showing some pictures of Minsk and Leningrad and some of the pictures of some of the friends of Marina's friends, girl friends.
(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any conversations with the Oswalds at that time about the kind of apartment that they had when they lived in Minsk?
Mrs. FORD - I don't remember any particulars about that apartment, but they were talking about, I think, about the apartment, I don't know exactly what was said about it. I know it was, I think I remember they were saying they lived in one room and sharing a kitchen.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did they tell you how they came to meet each other in Russia and how they came to be married?
Mrs. FORD - It wasn't said at that particular time, but I remember Marina was telling me afterwards how they came to meet each other, and I believe it was at a dance some place at the Hall of Culture or some place they would have in Russia dances, and she met him there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Of the people that were at this luncheon, aside from yourself, how many of them were originally born in Russia?
Mrs. FORD - Mr. Bouhe and I believe and Mr. Meller would be--I believe Ted Meller was born in Poland.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did it appear to you at the time of that luncheon that Lee Harvey Oswald lived like other Russian people lived or did it appear that he might have received preferential treatment in some way.
Did you gather an impression about that during the course of your conversation?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; I believe he was still in something of a hardship in living in Russia, that was the reason for his leaving Russia. That it was rather difficult to make his ends meet as we say, because he was comparing it with his living standards of Marina's uncle who was a colonel or a major, I don't know, I wouldn't say because I don't know. He was saying that they had a very lovely apartment consisting of maybe four or five rooms and he was comparing it with his apartment, and such.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he compare his apartment with the apartment of other workers who worked in Minsk?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't think so. He was just comparing, I believe with her uncle.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job?
Mrs. FORD - I don't remember, he was saying or Marina was saying something, 80 rubles, I don't know which one gave me that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he indicate whether that was about the same that other people were paid or more?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; about the same as the workers were paid.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, is there anything else you can remember about that luncheon, the conversation at that luncheon which you would like to tell the Commission about other than what we have already touched on?
Mrs. FORD - Well, I don't know what was important. I know he was saying--my husband made a sort of a joking statement that he had a child born in Russia, and he said, well, if it wasn't for the Americans she wouldn't be born over there because he had to wait so long to get a visa, I don't know what else he said.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was a visa for him to return?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; and the little girl, June, was born there because of that.
Mr. LIEBELER - And Lee Oswald blamed the Americans for causing the delay?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he indicate what attitude the Russian authorities took when he told them he wanted to come back to the United States?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't know. He didn't say anything. I don't remember discussing it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he say anything about the attitude they took toward letting Marina leave Russia and coming to the United States?
Mrs. FORD - I don't believe anything was said about that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is there anything else you can remember about that luncheon now you think we ought to know about?
Mrs. FORD - Well, I am thinking, I really don't think I remember anything else.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was the next contact then that you had with the Oswalds?
Mrs. FORD - I think it must have been at--in late October or the first part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald, but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way, but at the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at the night when attending the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER - This was the first time you saw her?
Mrs. FORD - That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on her face. And George Bouhe was saying that Anna Meller, I don't know who picked her up, I believe George Bouhe because Anna Meller don't have a car, they went to Marina's apartment and picked up the baby things, playpen, and other things that she could take with her at the time, and she stayed there, I couldn't say how many days.
Mr. LIEBELER - Stayed with Mrs. Meller?
Mrs. FORD - With Mrs. Meller, I don't think it was longer than a week, and then my husband was supposed to go away for a week or so; I don't remember the time, I thought he was going--he said he had to go Austin and I told Mr. Bouhe that I could take her for a week, just take her in, if she didn't have a place to go, so I did, and she stayed with me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Why did she come to you as opposed to staying with Anna Meller?
Mrs. FORD - Anna Meller has a small two-room apartment and I have a bigger house. We have four bedrooms so I could make room for her and her children.
Mr. LIEBELER - When Mr. Bouhe called you and told you about this, did he tell you anything about why Marina was leaving Lee Oswald?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; he said because of mistreatment and she decided she is not going to return to him any longer, and Mr. Bouhe said, told her, if she made a promise to him she is not going to return to that man he will help her all he could to find a place to stay permanently such as maybe as help at home at somebody's house until she learns enough English to start going on her own whatever she could do.
And I think he was trying to do, he was trying to find a place and that is the reason before that she needed a place to stay until she did find a place, and I kept her for a week until my husband returned and then another friend of mine, who also has a fairly large place where Marina could be comfortable, she told me she could keep her there for as long as Marina wished to stay.
Mr. LIEBELER - How did Marina actually get to your place? Did Mr. Bouhe bring her to your place?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; he did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know how long Marina stayed with Anna Meller before she came to your place?
Mrs. FORD - It could be a week but I am not sure. But I don't think it is longer than a week.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Lee Oswald come to see Marina while Marina was at your house?
Mrs. FORD - No; he did not but he did talk to her on the telephone, I think approximately after 3 days, after she stayed with me he called her up every night, I think he did call, every evening.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina talk to him on the telephone?
Mrs. FORD - She was hesitating at first but he wouldn't leave the telephone until she came to telephone and she was talking to him. I didn't hear what he was saying but she was telling him not to call on her again and not to bother, she was not going to return to him.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you what the conversations were about?
Mrs. FORD - No. She did not say anything.
Representative FORD. - When was this period that she stayed with you, October and November of 1963?
Mrs. FORD - I believe it must have been the first part of November.
Representative FORD. - Of 1963?
Mrs. FORD - 1962.
Representative FORD. - 1962.
Mrs. FORD - That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, did Marina Oswald pay you anything for the privilege of staying at your home at that time?
Mrs. FORD - No: I did not expect it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there any arrangement she would work in the house?
Mrs. FORD - No; there was no arrangement; no.
Mr. LIEBELER - Tell us what Marina told you while she was staying there about her relations with Lee Oswald and particularly as to why she separated from him and what the difficulties were in their marriage?
Mrs. FORD - I think mostly it was a mistreatment by him that she couldn't stand any longer, she was saying.
Mr. LIEBELER - Mistreatment by him?
Mrs. FORD - Mistreatment by him; yes. That is what she was saying.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you any more specifically than that what the problem was?
Mrs. FORD - No; she didn't really. She did not elaborate. She did not go into explanations of their living together.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she mention that Lee Oswald was jealous of the Russian friends that Marina had?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she did. She told me that, that he was.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did they argue about that?
Mrs. FORD - Well, I didn't know if they were arguing about that. I know she said that he was very jealous of them helping Marina and jealous for the reason that he wasn't able to provide her at the time with any of the things that they were giving Marina, clothes, and baby clothes, and I think that he was--it was making him rather mad because he said he was unable to buy the things for her at the time, and I know that he was not accepting things people were giving him. He was telling her not to take them but she was taking them because she needed them. I suppose they were arguing about that but I don't remember the particulars.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you form an impression at the time that Marina lived with you for that week as to what the cause of their difficulties might be?
Mrs. FORD - She mentioned one time that soon after marriage he told her he didn't love her any more in any way. So I don't know what is the difficulty, I don't know if that is what she mentioned. She did not explain and didn't go into explanations of this.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think, did you form an opinion as to whether this separation and the difficulties they were having was primarily the result of Oswald's behavior or did you think Marina might have been partially responsible for it, what did you think?
Mrs. FORD - My own opinion was that Marina was responsible for it. I think Marina was and I think now she is a rather immature girl.
The CHAIRMAN - She is what?
Mrs. FORD - I think she is rather immature in thinking.
The CHAIRMAN - Oh, yes.
Mrs. FORD - And a lot of times she agreed herself about provoking him in a way by arguing about his mother or things of some sort.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she tell you about arguments concerning his mother?
Mrs. FORD - Well, I don't know really. She would say something that he was badly brought up or something like that.
Representative FORD. - He was what?
Mrs. FORD - Badly brought up, some sort of thing, and he would get mad and slam her for that or something and then he was telling her not to let mother in, and when mother comes to the apartment she would let her in and then they would argue over that.
Representative FORD. - He would tell her not to let the mother in?
Mrs. FORD - That is right, and she would because she said she just couldn't do that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina tell you at that time what her feelings toward Lee's mother were?
Mrs. FORD - I don't remember her saying anything one way or the other if she liked her or didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember whether Marina might have mentioned that Lee Oswald had spoken to a neighbor and told the neighbor that Marina was from Czechoslovakia?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't know of anything like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - You didn't know at any time that Oswald didn't want people to know that his wife was from Russia? Marina didn't mention that?
Mrs. FORD - Not around us, we didn't because we knew it anyway.
Mr. LIEBELER - Marina didn't mention anything like that to you?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - When Marina lived with you during that time did she tell you anything about her background in Russia, did she tell you about her birthplace and youth in Russia?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she was going into more of that in talking with me more than anything else, I think. Actually most of the time she was talking about her friends during, I think about when she was going to school, about her boy friends and things she was talking to me about her friends and she did go into talk about when she lived in, let's see, it is not Ukraine, I think it is Bessarabia, right now where would that place be, to live there, and she was very young, I believe, let's see she was born during the war, and they were sent somewhere, I don't know where hey were sent, but then she lived there in Bessarabia for a few years, because there was a lot of food there and vegetables and they were sent there, to feed, like they sent the cattle to be fed up, I believe that is the expression she used after the war where the children could eat a lot of fruit and then she returned to Leningrad, I believe. I don't know how long she lived in Bessarabia.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she tell you about her life in Leningrad, just briefly, if you will summarize it for us.
Mrs. FORD - Well, really, I don't know--the only thing I knew was about some of the things she was telling me about friends she had there, she had a friend that was a medical student and she told me she talked a lot on the telephone to him, and she was rather, I thought that is where I made the impression to me, it made an impression to me she was immature, she liked to talk to the man for a long time in the evening but she was afraid to be seen with him in the streets, he was ugly, so I thought it was rather strange, you know, and then--
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you who she was living with in Leningrad?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she was living with her stepfather, that is what I remember, living with a stepfather she was telling me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you about her relations with her stepfather?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she did. She didn't like him and I think he doesn't like her, either; they never did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you any reasons why she did not like him?
Mrs. FORD - She was telling me a lot of times, she was telling me about her mother, the mother didn't want to show affection to Marina or something like that because the father was jealous of that affection, and I think he did some sort of a cruel thing to her once that she doesn't--she still remembers as being very cruel, something of accusing her of taking some family silver and selling it while she knows that he had pawned the silver for buying liquor, because it showed up, she couldn't explain it to her aunt and it just made her feel very bad at that time.
I think she just could never forgive him for that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina tell you about her move to Minsk?
Mrs. FORD - Well, she didn't tell me at that time I just found it out not too long ago that was the reasons she wanted to get away from a friend that she found out later that he was married, she went with him for a short while she did not know he was married, but she did not go into particulars of explaining the whole thing to me.
Representative FORD. - She was going with a man who was married?
Mrs. FORD - Yes. She met him somewhere, she had two tickets, she said, to a theater or to a movie, and she wanted to sell one ticket and he was the person who bought the ticket and they sat together in a movie house and later on, I believe, I don't know how they got to know each other later on, it was a few times they met, they have seen each other and at one time she went to his apartment, to the house that he lived, to call on him, and someone said that, "oh, that is the man who has that little boy," and she said she just turned around and went home. That is the time she found out he was married and was deceiving her.

But I don't know why she left, I mean why, exactly she left but I think this is the person that was her reason for leaving Leningrad.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you that she had left in part at least to get away from this man?
Mrs. FORD - That is what I understood.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, did Marina tell you why she married Lee Oswald when she was in Russia, did she talk to you about that?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she did.
I don't exactly know why she married him. But she said she met him at a dance, and soon after that, I don't know the reason why he was in the hospital but he was in a hospital, and she called on him, and I don't know how long he stayed there, either, and she liked the man, I think, and she bought him an Easter Egg, that was during Easter sometime and he was very surprised that such a thing could be done in Russia.
I think it rather pleased him very well. She said somehow she felt sorry for the man because none of her friends liked him, and mistrusted him, and she felt sort of like she was on the defensive, she wanted to, she felt sorry for him in a way.
Representative FORD. - Did she tell you why her friends didn't trust him?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she said they were thinking that he was an American spy or something like that, that is what they were trying to tell her. "Maybe he is a spy, and how can you trust a man like that?"
She told me the other day, she says no one trusted him, but she says, "I wasn't afraid of him," that is how she put it.
Representative FORD. - Did Marina indicate to you whether she thought or had any reason to believe that Oswald was a spy?
Mrs. FORD - No; she didn't. She didn't think so. She never said that, I mean.
Representative FORD. - Did Marina ever indicate to you or did you gather that one of the reasons that Marina married Lee Oswald was she had the possibility of leaving the Soviet Union in mind?
Mrs. FORD - Yes. She never did go out directly and say that but I think I got an impression that was her reason. She was telling me that way before she met Oswald she was dreaming of coming over here, and that is, I mean gathering by that later I thought that she wanted to come over, and he was, I suppose he was a reason.
Mr. LIEBELER - In this connection, I wanted to ask you whether you ever had any contact with any newspaper reporters from the Dallas newspapers about this, did they ask you about this at any time?
Mrs. FORD - About this I don't remember if they asked me. I don't remember. But a couple of reporters came to my house soon after the assassination and talked to me.
Mr. LIEBELER - I represent to you that there was a story in the November 27, 1963, issue of the Dallas Times Herald which told about some Russian-born woman in Dallas to whom Marina had supposedly confided some of the most intimate secrets of her stormy marriage, in the words of the newspaper article.
Do you have any knowledge whether that would be you or somebody else?
Mrs. FORD - I think that would be me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you tell the reporters that Marina had told you that Marina had felt sorry for Oswald because everybody hated him even in Russia?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; I might have said that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Marina did say that to you?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina tell you anything at this time about their trip back to the United States and the difficulties that they encountered, or how they did it, that sort of thing?
Mrs. FORD - No; I never talked with her about that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there any conversation while Marina stayed with you during that week in November 1962, about the possibility of a divorce, of her divorcing Lee Oswald?
Mrs. FORD - The possibility--I know she didn't want to go back to him at the time she stayed with me.
Mr. LIEBELER - But you don't remember any specific conversation?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't remember any specific conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER - About divorce?
Mrs. FORD - Frankly, there was talk about it, she didn't want to go back and I just told her, I felt that Marina wasn't really the domestic type she could stand very long being a help at home, not that I think she is not capable of taking care of her own house. I see now since she has got even her own place she keeps it very clean and her children are always neat. But she wasn't right for domestic help and I told her to stay with Lee, that is what I told her myself, and wait until she could be able to take care of herself other than working in a house.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she say about that?
Mrs. FORD - She didn't say, she was really just listening, I think, and she didn't say anything.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina say anything to you at this time about wanting to go back to Russia?
Mrs. FORD - No, no; she didn't want to.
In fact, she told me that Lee soon after he came to the United States, he was telling her that he would want to go back because he couldn't find a job here and he was, of course, seeing a lot of difficulties for himself, and Marina said, "If you want to go back, you can go but I am not going," that is what she told me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Marina told Lee if he wanted to go back he could but she wasn't going to go back to Russia.
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is that all the conversation that you had with her about going back to Russia at that time?
Mrs. FORD - That is right. That is about all.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you know where the Oswalds lived at this time when Marina came to the Meller's house and then to your house?
Mrs. FORD - No; I have never been at their apartment, and she couldn't tell me. I know she lived in Oak Cliff, the Dallas section about southwest, I believe.
Mr. LIEBELER - In Dallas?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you know whether Marina had lived with a lady in Fort Worth before they came to Dallas?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; I know they stayed there but I didn't talk to her during the time and I didn't visit her. I know she stayed at Elena Hall's house and I think Elena had an accident just before that and she was--she stayed in bed most of the time. Marina was helping her out.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, you had only seen Lee Oswald, up to this week that Marina came to live with you, one time, is that correct?
Mrs. FORD - That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was the Meller's luncheon party?
Mrs. FORD - That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were you surprised on the basis of any judgment you might have made of Lee Oswald to learn that he had beaten his wife?
Mrs. FORD - Just from seeing him once I would not have made--no; that he has beaten his wife; no, I didn't think at that time. I did, when she came in after I learned that he has beaten her, I was rather--I remember the bruises on her face and that rather made signs to me that he did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did it surprise you that he would have done this?
Mrs. FORD - No; it did not surprise me. I just felt that young man as he was, if he was--decided to go to Russia after living in a country like the United States, I didn't feel he was very, what shall I say, how would you say, a person's mind won't work at this time--
The CHAIRMAN. - Unstable?
Mrs. FORD - Unstable, that is how I felt. I felt a person like that, I felt frankly could do anything.
Representative FORD. - Did she ever tell you that Lee Oswald was the cause of these bruises on her face?
Mrs. FORD - Well, she did tell me after she came to the house to stay with me.
Representative FORD. - That is what I mean?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Representative FORD. - The bruises you saw on her face at the house she told you Lee Oswald was the cause?
Mrs. FORD - Yes, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let's clarify that a little. Did Marina Oswald have any bruises at the time she came to live in your house in November 1962?
Mrs. FORD - No; that is right. But she stayed at Anna Meller's house for a week and when she came to Anna Meller's house I heard there were bruises at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Anna Meller tell you that?
Mrs. FORD - Either Anna Meller or George Bouhe told me that. I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you yourself did see bruises on her face the first time?
Mrs. FORD - I did see the first time; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you that Lee Oswald had given her those bruises?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - She told you that when she stayed with you?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Tell us the circumstances under which Marina left your home in November of 1962, where she went and what happened?
Mrs. FORD - Well, she stayed with me a week, and my husband came home on Saturday, and we discussed with another friend of mine for Marina to go to her house and stay there as long as she wanted, and I think Sunday morning this friend of mine, Anna Ray, came with a station wagon and picked all her things up, her playpen she had for baby, and diapers and things, and took her to her house and I believe my husband was with her, too, at that time and that is how she left.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, do you know how long she stayed with the Rays?
Mrs. FORD - With the Rays. I think she just stayed there, she had had dinner there, I believe she stayed one afternoon. I don't know how soon Lee came there but he came soon over to the house, but Marina said he cried and begged her to return, he would be nothing, if she didn't return, he would be finished, that is what he was telling her, and she said she just couldn't say, no to him.
Mr. LIEBELER - So she returned to Oswald at that time?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she returned to Oswald.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever talk with the Mellers about their experiences with Marina when she lived at their house for that time?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't remember, she did not discuss it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you remember or did you know where Lee Oswald was living prior to the time that Marina came to Dallas?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't know where he lived at any time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you know where he was working at that time or if he was working at all?
Mrs. FORD - During the time they lived in Dallas, I believe, I don't know exactly, though, either George Bouhe or Anna Meller's husband found him a job in a printing shop, I think, or I believe it is printing shop, somewhere in Oak Cliff, and that is why they had an apartment there. I remember that is the reason because George Bouhe was rather mad at Marina for taking an apartment in Oak Cliff because it was too far for him to drive and help her when she needed help and the baby, I think he was taking her to the dentist and taking the baby to a doctor to help her in ways that she couldn't do herself.
Representative FORD. - Who was doing this driving?
Mrs. FORD - I believe George Bouhe did this. He has the car.
Mr. LIEBELER - Where does Bouhe live?
Mrs. FORD - He lives, well, I don't know his address now. I know where he lives but I don't know the street number.
Mr. LIEBELER - But it is not in the Oak Cliff Section of Dallas?
Mrs. FORD - No; it is not. I think it would be in the east part of Dallas.
Mr. LIEBELER - During the time that Marina stayed with you, did she say anything to you about Lee Oswald's political beliefs or his attitudes concerning politics?
Mrs. FORD - No; she didn't talk to me about that and I didn't ask her.
Frankly, I didn't talk with Lee about that, I didn't feel the need of it myself to discuss politics with him.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you discuss that subject with any of your friends?
Mrs. FORD - Well, yes. They were telling me, those friends that went to his apartment, were telling me, that they have seen books like Karl Marx open in front of him, just lying there on the table, that he didn't even hide it when someone came in, and then someone else said there was a book laying there of How to Be a Spy, laying right open there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember who told you that?
Mrs. FORD - I believe it was Lydia Dymitruk.
Mr. LIEBELER - D-y-m-i-t-r-u-k. Do you remember anything about that particular conversation?
Mrs. FORD - Well, she was telling me, she took, when the baby left my house, she had a cold, and it was getting worse, and I believe soon after she left Anna Ray, the baby began to have a fever, and Lydia, I believe, I don't know how she got to go to her apartment, really, I don't know the reason she went there; she went there and wanted to take the baby to the doctor and she told me of an incident that says even Marina was ashamed of Lee because when she took her to the hospital Lee was lying about that he didn't have a job at the time, which Lydia knew that he did have. He didn't want to pay for the services, and people at the hospital was asking him how does he pay for the apartment and he was telling them that, "My friends were helping me," and Marina just said something in Russian that Lydia remembers, "What a liar," you know, behind his back.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she say that so he could hear it?
Mrs. FORD - I think so, because she said it aloud.
Mr. LIEBELER - And she said it in Russian?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she did.
Mr. LIEBELER - In front of Lydia Dymitruk?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; that is right, and Lydia was rather mad about the whole thing and she said she is not going to help them any more if they are acting that way.
The baby wasn't helped at the hospital. I think the hospital didn't want to take the child because the father couldn't pay, that is what I got, the father couldn't pay for it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever see Marina say anything adverse to Oswald in his presence, did she run him down or make fun of him in public so far as you know?
Mrs. FORD - As far as I know, I don't, except the first time, the one time, I would think when she said, "What a liar," in front of him.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't know of any other instance when she would have done that?
Mrs. FORD - I don't know of any other instance.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know whether she ever spoke of his political views before other people or make fun of him?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't remember except lately I have been talking to her about that and she said she thought of him being young, and she thought she hoped it would pass with years, that he would mature, this is what she was telling me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you whether or not she discussed politics with him herself? Did she argue with him about anything?
Mrs. FORD - She said she was arguing with him about that. Certainly, in fact, he called her, she was typical American girl, that she is not interested at all in politics, except in the material things that he wasn't interested in. She said she wanted a house and a family and he said, "All the American girls think that way" and he thought he married a different sort of a girl, a Russian girl.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, think back on that week that Marina stayed with you. Is there anything else that happened or is there anything that Marina told you that you think we should know about and about which I haven't already asked you?
Mrs. FORD - I cannot think of it at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER - When was the next contact that you had with the Oswalds?
Mrs. FORD - It was right after Christmas before New Year's. I believe it was the 28th of December, a Friday. I gave, I had, a party for all the friends, and I invited a family by the name of De Mohrenschildt, wife and husband, and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt called me up and asked me if she couldn't bring Marina and her husband over because she was saying it is a shame the way all their Russian friends have forsaken them during that time and they had no place to go and the De Mohrenschildts were the only ones helping them at the time, and I told her I didn't object to it. So she brought them over with them.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was Mr. Bouhe at the party?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; I think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were Elena Hall and her husband there?
Mrs. FORD - I don't remember them being at that party. I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were the Mellers there?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You mentioned that De Mohrenschildt was there.
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And the Oswalds.
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there a gentleman by the name of Allen A. Jackson at the party?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And his wife?
Mrs. FORD - And his wife.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember any conversations or observe any conventions between Marina Oswald and Mr. Jackson?
Mrs. FORD - Marina Oswald, no; I don't think so. I don't think Marina spoke English at the time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were Mr. and Mrs. Charles Edward Harris at the party?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to Mr. and Mrs. Harris about the party afterward?
Mrs. FORD - I might have.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she mention translating a conversation between Mr. Jackson and Marina Oswald?
Mrs. FORD - No; she did not mention it to me.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you didn't see her doing that?
Mrs. FORD - No; I didn't see her doing that at the party.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any conversation with Lee Oswald at the party that night?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you notice anybody else talking to him?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; I did. I noticed a girl talking to him who was of Japanese descent but I don't remember her name.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there anything striking about that?
Mrs. FORD - No; I think, the only thing it was that I think he talked to her most of the time and wasn't making any conversation with anyone else.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina comment on that to you?
Mrs. FORD - No; she didn't. But I heard from somebody else that she did comment.
Mr. LIEBELER - Who told you that?
Mrs. FORD - I think George Bouhe again. He always spoke to everybody.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did Mr. Bouhe say about that?
Mrs. FORD - Well, he said something that I asked Marina afterward and she told me that it wasn't true. He said that Lee talked to that Japanese girl like a--it is an expression in Russia to take a bath and then beat themselves with the leaves from a tree, and the leaf would stick to the body, in the wintertime, and so the expression from that, like a leaf sticks to the hot body when you take a bath, you know. Then I suppose Lee struck her as just not saying anything--and I asked Marina and she said he did not do it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there any talk at the party about Oswald's experiences in Russia or his marriage to Marina?
Mrs. FORD - During the party?
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.
Mrs. FORD - No; I didn't talk to him at all.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you didn't overhear anybody else talking about Oswald's experiences in Russia?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - You mentioned that the Oswalds came with De Mohrenschildt. Did they go home with De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; they did because Mrs. De Mohrenschildt stated that the lady who stayed with Oswald's child had to leave at 12 o'clock and they left before that.
Mr. LIEBELER - After the Oswalds left the party, was there any discussion about the Oswalds that you can remember?
Mrs. FORD - No; really not. I don't think they made a big impression on that party on anybody.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you fix the date on which your party was held?
Mrs. FORD - The 28th of December.
Mr. LIEBELER - What year?
Mrs. FORD - 1962.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there any other party the next day or the day after that?
Mrs. FORD - There were other parties. I don't think that Marina and her husband were present. I don't know if you would call it a party, there was a sort of a get-together at my house afterward because some people stayed over in town for a few days, I think that was the Rays, and the Harrises, and a friend of my husband from Louisiana, Sullivans, stayed there. But they hadn't met Oswald, they came much later after 12 o'clock. So we sort of had a get-together.
Mr. LIEBELER - This would have been the next day?
Mrs. FORD - The next day.
Mr. LIEBELER - On the 29th of December. Was Mr. Bouhe--
Mrs. FORD - No; Mr. Bouhe wasn't present at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there any conversation at that time about Oswald?
Mrs. FORD - I don't remember, I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember that there was a party or open house at Mr. Bouhe's house on the 29th?
Mrs. FORD - If there was, I wasn't present, I didn't go.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there a party at Meller's house?
Mrs. FORD - There was a party or luncheon.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you go?
Mrs. FORD - No; I didn't go.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you hear any conversation during this period of 3 or 4 days about Oswald, anybody speculating about Oswald or discussing his experiences--
Mrs. FORD - No; I think--
Mr. LIEBELER - In Russia?
Mrs. FORD - I think at that time everyone rather--George Bouhe said he was not going to help them any more, he was through, since Marina, he tried to help her very hard, and she did not hold her word about not going back to him. So he said since she went back, so now it is her problem.
Well, he is sort of that type of man, he is trying to help hard and if you are doing what he says otherwise he is not going to help, so that was it. So it was rather, sort of Marina and her husband were dropped at that time, nobody actually wanted to help, and I think what they heard about Lydia Dymitruk was saying that he couldn't help those people. I mean they were just sort of--he couldn't reach them. He was lying in hospital and things, we sort of gave it up.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Lydia make that remark at one of those parties or was that at a previous time?
Mrs. FORD - Oh, that was a previous time. As soon as she left to go back to her husband, George Bouhe even took the Russian dictionary back to him. He told her to give it back and he was just through with him.
Mr. LIEBELER - So far as you know Mr. Bouhe had no more contact with the Oswalds after that?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any conversation with any of your friends in Dallas or Fort Worth on the question of Oswald's ability to leave Russia and come back to the United States and bring Marina with him?
Mrs. FORD - We didn't speculate on that until really later, until now, after the assassination that subject came up, and people asking why they left so soon. He was telling me it took them a year, so I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there any conversation prior to the assassination, during this period in 1962, any speculation as to whether Oswald might be an agent of any government?
Mrs. FORD - No. I frankly didn't think he was capable of it. That was my feeling on it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Were there any conversations on that?
Mrs. FORD - No. There were not.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe suggested at one time that Oswald was a mental case?
Mrs. FORD - Mr. Bouhe, he might have; yes, I think we all thought that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember that Mr. Bouhe said that?
Mrs. FORD - I don't remember particularly that he would say that.
The CHAIRMAN - Did you say, "We all thought that"?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; we thought that, that he was rather mentally--you just said the word before.
The CHAIRMAN - Unstable?
Mrs. FORD - Unstable.
Mr. LIEBELER - Unstable.
Why did you think that, Mrs. Ford?
Mrs. FORD - In my own opinion, I just didn't think that a man as young as he was could come to the conclusions just by rather experiences or living a long time in America and I mean studying the whole economic structures of different governments, and things that he would come to the conclusion that is the best thing for him. I think he was just rather too young for that.
I thought he was just rather--something was rather wrong with the man.
Mr. LIEBELER - You based this--
Representative FORD. - In the conversation that Oswald had with this Japanese lady at your party, did you overhear any of that conversation?
Mrs. FORD - No; I did not. I did not have time, I was the hostess and I just didn't get to talk to anyone.
Representative FORD. - Did you ever ask the Japanese lady what the gist of the conversation was or what the content of the conversation was?
Mrs. FORD - No; I never have. In fact, I have not seen her after that. That was the first time she came to my house. I mean I have seen her later on in the beauty shop but I have never talked to her about it.
Representative FORD. - Did she speak English?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she speaks English well.
Representative FORD. - All right.
Mr. LIEBELER - At this get-together that you mentioned at your house on. I think it was the 29th, after the party, the informal get-together, the Rays were there, and the Sullivans, and Mr. and Mrs. Harris.
Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested to you that some of the people that were there at that party said the possibility of Oswald being a Russian agent was discussed in detail at that party in that group?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't remember any of the discussion?
Mrs. FORD - I don't remember any of the discussion.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is there anything other than what you told us that led you to believe that Oswald was unstable or a mental case?
Mrs. FORD - Nothing, except that I was thinking about him myself beating his wife. That would have, been one reason. I don't think that any stable man would do that, especially she appeared to me very sick sort of a woman, not sick, but frail and fragile, I think any man who strikes a woman who is incapable of striking back, I would think would be unstable.
Mr. LIEBELER - This Russian group that we have been discussing, Mr. Bouhe and these other people, do they see each other regularly? Is there sort of a Russian community in Dallas, would you say?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; there are about, I think, maybe four families in Fort Worth and maybe half a dozen in Dallas or more than that, but that mainly we see each other, and there is one Eastern Orthodox Church in Russia where that is where we actually meet each other.
Mr. LIEBELER - In Dallas, you mean, or Fort Worth?
Mrs. FORD - Dallas. I am sorry. In Dallas, and we still observe our Eastern Orthodox religion during the holidays and sometimes like Christmas falls 13 days after the American Christmas so there is New Year's sometimes we celebrate those.
Mr. LIEBELER - How well do you know the De Mohrenschildts?
Mrs. FORD - Well, I know George De Mohrenschildt the same, approximately, I will say I was acquainted with him for approximately 14 years but I don't know him well.
Mr. LIEBELER - You mentioned before that De Mohrenschildt was the only member of the Russian community that kept on seeing the Oswalds and trying to help them.
Was there any discussion about that among your friends?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; George De Mohrenschildt is rather an odd ball, among Russians anyway, so it was nothing unusual about him doing that. He was always doing something unusual. He would even go to church with shorts on, you know, this is something, he would do something that nobody else would do.
Mr. LIEBELER - Shorts?
Mrs. FORD - Shorts.
Mr. LIEBELER - Short trousers?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember any specific conversations about the reasons as to why De Mohrenschildt continued to associate with the Oswalds after the rest of you had given them up.
Mrs. FORD - Well, I remember his wife was telling me like she felt it was their duty now since everybody else dropped them and they needed help.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember any conversation with the Oswalds among any of your friends as to whether or not Oswald went hunting in Russia and had access to weapons?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; I think that George Bouhe was telling me that. He was telling him that he was going hunting and he told him about killing ducks or something of that type.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you remember that in any greater detail?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't remember it. I only remember that because of the way he was saying, "ducks" in Russian, George was saying that he was using sort of a word when you call for it, it is a small duck rather than for ducks, he was saying that his Russian wasn't perfect.
I mean in that conversation he was using, an example of he was saying, when he would go hunting for ducks, instead of "utki" for ducks he would say "utitschki" that would mean small ducks, and he was saying that his Russian was imperfect.
Mr. LIEBELER - That is Oswald's Russian?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - What about Marina's ability to speak English at that time, did she speak English at that time?
Mrs. FORD - I don't think she did. She could speak a few words but I don't think she did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did any of you attempt to teach her English?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; George Bouhe was attempting to teach her to write and was giving her lessons.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell us something about that?
Mrs. FORD - Well, he was telling me that he had gotten her a dictionary and he had--or some other book anyway and he was telling me that every time he saw her, made an attempt to see her I don't know how he did that but anyway he was giving her a lesson and she was supposed to have completed it by the next time in writing.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Mr. Bouhe tell you anything about Marina's ability to speak English or write English? Did Marina learn as a result of that?
Mrs. FORD - He said she was doing very well. I don't know if she learned to speak but he said she was a good student.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Lee Oswald ever object to this effort on Mr. Bouhe's Part?
Mrs. FORD - Well, he was objecting to anyone of the Russians helping her.
Mr. LIEBELER - Helping her learn English?
Mrs. FORD - Not learning English, but I mean helping her about anything. I don't know whether he was objecting to that. But we talked with Lee about this, why he wasn't teaching her English and he wasn't speaking to her and he said that he didn't want to forget Russian and he really said, "If she wants," this is what Marina said the other day, that he didn't actually object, but he thought if she could learn Russian just by herself in any way she could, she could, but he is not going to help her. He just didn't want to help her by speaking English.
Mr. LIEBELER - You mean English.
Mrs. FORD - That is right. He is not going to talk English with her, he wanted Russian. He wanted for the little girl to learn Russian and for himself not to forget it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did he indicate, in other words that he wanted Marina to speak Russian so that he could maintain his own ability in Russian?
Mrs. FORD - That is correct.
Mr. LIEBELER - And he also wanted his children to learn to speak Russian?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - After this party on the 28th of December, what was your next contact with either Lee or Marina Oswald?
Mrs. FORD - After the 28th? I think after the assassination, I only heard once about her, I just heard she went to New Orleans. Again a friend, Lydia Dymitruk, was in the bakery and she said she saw Marina coming in and she told her she thought Marina was pregnant and she told her Marina was going to New Orleans. That is the only time I have heard anything about them after that party. The next contact I had with her was, I don't know the date but it was soon after the assassination when I just felt sorry for Marina, I thought she was, I always felt she was innocent, I thought she was a naive girl in a lot of ways and that is why she got into a lot of problems and troubles.
I just felt if she didn't have anybody there except the FBI and nobody to speak in Russian, she didn't know how everybody felt, I would think she would feel very badly, so I called Mrs. Paine who, I found out after the assassination she was a friend of Marina's and I told her that if she would have a contact with Marina, tell her that we sympathize with her that she is in the position that she is, and to call me or to let me know that I would like to talk with her.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell us approximately when it was that you talked to Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. FORD - I think that was either the first part of December, I think it must have been at least a week after the assassination.
Mr. LIEBELER - In early December?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What happened after that?
Mrs. FORD - Right after that, I think the next day Marina called me, and she said the reason she called me was because Mrs. Paine told her that I called, and let her know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember specifically that Marina told you that she, Marina, had talked to Mrs. Paine?
Mrs. FORD - Well, this, I don't know. I think that is what she did. In fact, I think that Mrs. Paine told me she talked on the telephone with Marina but I couldn't be positive about it. I know she wrote letters, they wrote, I know Mrs. Paine wrote to Marina, and I couldn't exactly say she talked to her on the telephone or how it was, either Marina called Mrs. Paine or I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say you know Marina wrote Mrs. Paine a letter? Did Marina tell you that she wrote Mrs. Paine during that period?
Mrs. FORD - I don't remember. I know later Mrs. Paine kept calling me and asked if I heard from Marina, because she kept writing to Marina and Marina didn't answer, so she wanted to know if I talked to her, that she was the reason she was calling me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Mrs. Paine indicate to you after she called you trying to find out from Marina, did she indicate to you she had or had not heard from Marina since the assassination?
Mrs. FORD - I believe she told me she talked on the telephone with her right soon after, after I did.
Mr. LIEBELER - During this first telephone conversation with Marina, was there anything said about the events of the assassination in any way?
Mrs. FORD - No; not at all, except that Marina was very surprised the way people treated her. She was telling me that if it had happened in Russia, she just would--she just knew she wouldn't be talking to me or anybody else. She knew they would be sent to Siberia or shot right away is what she said.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is that what Marina said?
Mrs. FORD - That is what she said. I told her that was the big difference in Russian Government and the American Government. And then she asked me for advice. Someone contacted her at the time from a western paper and offered her $10,000 or something for the story and she asked me if it was the right thing to do because she felt she didn't want to make money on such a thing, a horrible thing as that, and I advised her to take the money because I thought she would need it for the children.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, after that first--was there anything else you discussed in that telephone conversation?
Mrs. FORD - No; I think we talked mostly about that book deal, about the offer she had.
Mr. LIEBELER - After that first telephone conversation, what was the next contact you had with Marina?
Mrs. FORD - That was quite a long time after that when it was again Mrs. Paine contacted me, and wanted to know if I could go and translate for them for, we were saying about that yesterday, what is that union.
Mr. LIEBELER - I did talk to you yesterday afternoon.
Mrs. FORD - I have forgotten, I couldn't say because it is important.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was it the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. FORD - That is right, it was the American Civil Liberties Union and I talked to my husband about that and he tried to find out; I told him to find out all he can if it had anything to do with a Communist front or something and if it was I didn't want to do anything about it, to be connected with it, and he couldn't find anything out, but at the same time I told him that I did not want to go with them but I didn't mind translating. So I did translate and they wanted to know if Marina was held incommunicado, and she answered. Mrs. Paine brought me that letter to translate from English to Russian, and the man in charge, I don't know his name, I have forgotten his name, you mentioned it yesterday, if you say it I will remember it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Let's come to that in a moment, let's develop the story first.
How did the question of the American Civil Liberties first come up, did Mrs. Paine bring it up?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; that is right, because she tried to write letters to Marina and she wouldn't answer and she thought she was held in sort of a protective custody and couldn't see anybody. That is what she felt, and she was rather imprisoned is what she thought.
Mr. LIEBELER - So Mrs. Paine came to you with a letter that was written in English, is that correct?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - And she asked you to translate into Russian?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was that a letter from Mrs. Paine to Marina or a letter from the Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs. FORD - No; from Civil Liberties Union
Mr. LIEBELER - And so you translated that into Russian?
Mrs. FORD - That is right, I translated it into Russian.
Mr. LIEBELER - Up to that point was Mrs. Paine the only person who discussed that subject with you.
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any further discussions with Mrs. Paine or anybody else?
Mrs. FORD - We tried to find out about the Union and my husband called lawyers and friends of his who would know about it and called the Secret Service and FBI and nobody would tell us anything about it. They would send us somewhere else, refer it to someone else to find out, so we don't find out.
So, I just decided on my own not to go, just to translate.
Mr. LIEBELER - Well now, what is this about going with them, what did Mrs. Paine ask you?
Mrs. FORD - She thought that maybe since I knew Marina she would rather confide in me more than just anyone like reporters or someone just from the Union would go there.
Mr. LIEBELER - But you declined to go with them?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did there come a time when somebody else spoke to you about this subject?
Mrs. FORD - No, not at all. Just during that time I wanted to find out if she was in prison.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina respond to the letter that you translated?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; they received an answer right the next day, and the man from Richardson, who I think is the head of that Union in Dallas, came to my house and asked me if I could translate it back into English.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember that man's name?
Mrs. FORD - No; if you mention it I would know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name of Gregg Olds?
Mrs. FORD - That is right; yes, that is his name.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did Mr. Olds say to you when he came to see you?
Mrs. FORD - He just brought the letter and he was rather standing and he wasn't talking very much. He was kind of a quiet person, I think. I took the letter--he thought I could just sit there and do it real fast in front of him, but I had to take it into a room and sort of concentrate in the living room and translated and giving it to him.
He said, "Thank you," and he left.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell us approximately when this was?
Mrs. FORD - No; I cannot say. Let's see. I think it was sometime before Christmas, because after that I sent her a Christmas card.
No, wait a minute, I just can't say if it was before Christmas or afterward, I don't remember.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you remember if it was before or after Marina testified before this Commission?
Mrs. FORD - That was before the Warren Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER - It was before the Warren Commission?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to Marina again on the telephone after this first time?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; I talked to her on the telephone because through my husband's brother who is a professor in one of the universities in California, he had a friend by the name of Isaac Levine who does write, who speaks Russian and writes rather--he wrote a book of on the mind of the assassin, Trotsky's story. He wanted to contact me and to find out if Marina had signed a contract on writing a book. So I told him that I would call the managers, since there was published in the newspaper at that time, and to find out if they did, and I did call. I called her lawyer and I asked if she signed for a book, and I called Levine long distance and told him she did not have a contract signed. Then he told me that he would like--he wanted to know if he could arrange to see Marina, and I told him that I would ask the manager and he told me to contact, for Levine to contact, the attorney and the manager. I saw later on they have somehow gotten together. I think he wrote to them.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did there come a time when Marina came to your house to visit?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she brought a letter she wanted me to translate. It was after this, after I had a contact about the writer Marina called me, this is the first time, the first time after the assassination that she called me on the telephone and we talked about that and I told her that the man had contacted me and he speaks Russian. I thought it would be a good opportunity for her to write if she wanted to since she could communicate easily with a writer that speaks Russian. I read his book that he sent me, and he makes real sense. I invited her to come out to dinner and, of course. I didn't expect that there would be a whole company with her.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she come out?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; they did, they came out, the Secret Service and the manager were there and everybody so I cooked a Russian dinner.
Mr. LIEBELER - Can you tell us approximately when that was?
Mrs. FORD - It was shortly before the Commission, maybe about 2 weeks before the Commission.
Mr. LIEBELER - Late in January sometime?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - During that time that Marina was there did you have any discussion with her about the events of the assassination or anything relating to that?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she discuss with you her possible testimony before this Commission?
Mrs. FORD - No, not during that time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina come back to your house again before she came to testify before the Commission?
Mrs. FORD - Yes, she was once more at my house. During the first time her manager brought a letter that she wanted to bring to the Governor about how she feels about Ruby's being executed. She told me she didn't want, she didn't feel, if she could help she didn't want to have the killing of a dead man on her conscience, on her mind. She wanted me to translate that letter and I did translate it.
And I left it at home and later on they came by, I told Mr. Martin that I would come by his house and bring the letter to her after I translated.
He said, "If you wanted to we can come back to your house like we did before." And they did and they picked up the letter.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have any copy of that letter?
Mrs. FORD - I think maybe I have a copy of it, of my translation. But I am not positive. I know I put it in a desk.
Representative FORD. - This was a letter from whom to whom?
Mrs. FORD - From Marina to, I will say they did--I think it was advised to her to write it to the Governor, to Governor Connally.
Representative FORD. - To Governor Connally?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - To the present Governor of Texas, that is the Governor of Texas?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You said that Marina said to you she did not want to have another death on her conscience?
Mrs. FORD - That is right. She feels like, she told me she feels strongly about it, that people shouldn't kill one another, if there is no war.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she use the words as you remember it, the words "on her conscience"?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't remember that word really but I just feel this was, she would feel very badly if that would happen.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she seem to feel that she had some responsibility for these things?
Mrs. FORD - What do you mean by that? I mean how, responsibility in what way?
Mr. LIEBELER - That she was in anyway a cause of any of these deaths herself?
Mrs. FORD - No; I wouldn't think she feels this way, no.
Mr. LIEBELER - Tell us about the conversations at the second meeting. Were there any conversations at that time about her testimony before the Commission or about the assassination?
Mrs. FORD - I believe she mentioned she was going to Washington at that time. She knew about going, I believe Martin said that.
Mr. LIEBELER - But she didn't talk about her testimony?
Mrs. FORD - No; she didn't, not at all she didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to anybody else about her testimony before the Commission?
Mrs. FORD - I don't know, I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Mr. Martin say anything about it?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't remember, I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER - When was the next time that you saw Marina?
Mrs. FORD - After she came back from Washington.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she come to your house then?
Mrs. FORD - No; she did not. Her lawyer, in fact Mr. Martin, called me and told me she is staying at her brother-in-law's, and that he wanted to break the partnership with her, and he asked me if I could go with her attorney and translate for her the conditions of the break, the breaking of the contract, and I agreed to go with them.
Mr. LIEBELER - To Robert Oswald?
Mrs. FORD - To Robert Oswald's house; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did there come a time after that when Marina came to live with you in your house?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; when I came there, Marina told me she couldn't stay another day, she thought, in Robert's house. It was such a small house and small children and she just didn't like to stay in there at all, and so I told her, "Well, you could come and stay at my place if you wanted to," and she said she would love to do that.
Mr. LIEBELER - After Marina moved in with you, did you talk to her about her testimony before the Commission, that she gave before the Commission?
Mrs. FORD - No; we never talked about what she did. She told me she had it, written something. She said something maybe that someone mentioned in the Commission that that was rather good for a novel but not for the testimony.
She said, well, she had written the way she remembers her past, those are the words she made.
Mr. LIEBELER - She was referring to a statement she had written.
Mrs. FORD - She had written, yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she show it to you?
Mrs. FORD - No; I have never seen it.
Mr. LIEBELER - During the time that Marina stayed with you or at any other time, did she say anything to you about this incident where Mr. Oswald was allegedly going to attack Mr. Nixon?
Mrs. FORD - No; I hadn't learned about that until later.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you discuss it with Marina?
Mrs. FORD - Somehow she didn't feel, she didn't want to discuss it very much, she felt badly that it came out, I suppose or something. She didn't want it to.
Mr. LIEBELER - But she did talk to you about it?
Mrs. FORD - She talked to me because I had to translate it to her, the discussion with her lawyer, and he, I think, the FBI were at the lawyer's office while they went to talk to her about the subject, and I had to translate what she was telling the lawyer about it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any conversations with her about this Nixon affair at a time when the FBI was not present?
Mrs. FORD - I think going home, I just maybe, I don't know what I asked her. She said the same thing actually what she said in the office, that she held him in the bathroom and I asked her how was it finished, and she said, "I talked him out of it," and he said, "If you will keep me in the bathroom, just give me something to read." She didn't talk very much about it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ask her how she could lock Lee in the bathroom?
Mrs. FORD - No; it never occurred to me to ask her and I did not ask her.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you discuss this question with anybody else how she could lock anybody in the bathroom?
Mrs. FORD - Not until yesterday with my husband, how she could do it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is there anything else that Marina told you about this Nixon affair that you can remember now?
Did she tell you when it happened?
Mrs. FORD - No; she told me only that, that she said she mixed up dates. She thought it was one month and it was, supposedly happened, another month and she said that a lot of times she doesn't remember exactly the month.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you anything about the General Walker affair?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she told me something about that.
Mr. LIEBELER - What was that?
Mrs. FORD - She said in the first place, people are saying that maybe she knew ahead of time and she said she did not. Lee told her after it had happened, after he had shot, and he told her, "Well, I just tried to shoot Walker." She said she was rather angry and she told him if he ever does that again, she said, "Don't ever do that again," she was rather disgusted--that he shouldn't do such a thing.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you about any note that he had written in connection with the attack on General Walker?
Mrs. FORD - No; she didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you whether the Walker incident occurred before or after the Nixon incident?
Mrs. FORD - I don't know. She never said it to me.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she discuss with you during this period that she had been living in your house any of the details of the assassination?
Mrs. FORD - I, frankly, just didn't feel like asking her questions, I really felt like I just wanted to help her, that is all. She never brought the subject up herself.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she say anything about what happened on Thursday night when Lee Oswald came back from Irving to Dallas?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she said that was not long ago, and she somehow found out someone, I think Robert, told her there was some evidence that someone saw a boy running across--a boy saw someone running across the yard or something, and he thought maybe there was some other man involved. And she began to say, "Well, if Lee didn't kill the President why did he come home on Thursday and why did he leave his ring at home and why was the gun taken from the garage." I mean she was putting that together, she was making me believe that Lee was doing it.
Mr. LIEBELER - She was considering at that time the possibility that Lee Oswald was not?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Guilty of this?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; Robert, I believe, was telling her that, that there was a possibility that somebody else did the crime and she was talking about that to me, and that is when she said about why would he come back on Thursday when he never did that before, and also that he would leave a ring that was to her it would mean something that, he didn't want--he didn't feel like he would return or something.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you discuss with Marina her feeling as to Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence in this matter?
Mrs. FORD - Well, she feels that--no, I don't remember her discussing it. I think she asked him after she saw him after the assassination he told her no, he did not kill anybody. He told her that. But I think her own conclusion is that he did.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any discussions with her as to whether Lee Oswald was angry with President Kennedy for any reason?
Mrs. FORD - No; she told me that he actually never did say anything bad about Kennedy. He didn't like General Walker because he compared him rather with Hitler in some way. He said, he was telling her, she was asking him why would he kill a man like that, I mean that he should not kill anybody. He said, he told her, well, if somebody killed Hitler ahead of time that wouldn't have happened in Germany and he says he felt like it was his duty to get rid of men where he was a Fascist, speaking about General Walker.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina say anything about Lee's attitude toward Governor Connally?
Mrs. FORD - No; she never discussed that,
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to Marina about Marina's feelings toward Mrs, Paine?
Mrs. FORD - Lately, I have been talking to her about that, and Mrs. Paine, I know, tried to contact her and asked Marina why she did not want to write to her, because I know that she had written to her often. Somehow she doesn't like Mrs. Paine and then she said she feels that Martin told her that Mrs. Paine was making money on her articles about Marina, and she don't like that.
I got, even lately, Mrs. Paine called me up, and I believe it was only a pretense because she knew that I had a contact with Marina and she wanted to see Marina. She came to my house and told me she wanted for me to read in Russian very slowly that she could follow me for her students. She is teaching Russian to some students in private school and that she could record it and then listen to it, and she said she would pay me for the services, and at the time, the same time.
So, I had Marina that evening, I know she would want to see her, so I invited Marina to my house and at the time Mrs. Paine was coming.
Mr. LIEBELER - You told her Mrs. Paine was coming?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; I told her Mrs. Paine was coming and she only said she didn't want Mrs. Paine for her to know the telephone number or the house she lives in. She said she would come in all the time and she didn't exactly like her. She didn't want to see her at her house, not now anyway, she said.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina and Mrs. Paine meet this evening at your house?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; they did, they talked.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did they say to each other?
Mrs. FORD - Well, frankly, I got an idea that Mrs. Paine came there to convince Marina to write a book with Mr. Levine who is rather persistent about it at the moment. He wants to start writing a book before Marina finishes with her lawyer and attorney--and her manager. She knows and she is advised by her attorney now not to do it before it is finished, and I think Mrs. Paine tried to talk her into it.
Mr. LIEBELER - They didn't discuss anything about the assassination or Mrs. Oswald's testimony before the Commission?
Mrs. FORD - No; I did not hear it.
Mr. LIEBELER - So far as you heard.
Did Marina ever tell you anything about the trip to Mexico that Lee Oswald took?
Mrs. FORD - Well, let's see. I think she was saying something about it that she did not mention to the FBI but she mentioned it to the Commission. She did say that. And that the FBI wanted to talk with her, that was the reason they wanted to come back again and talk with her. They came to my house quite often during the time she stayed at my house and talked with her, and she said that was the subject, and they asked her why she did not say it to start with, and she said well, she had begun to get tired of the FBI and she didn't like to talk with them.
Mr. LIEBELER - The FBI had been interviewing her while she stayed. at your place?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you been present at any of those interviews?
Mrs. FORD - No; unless they needed--no; I was not present.
Mr. LIEBELER - You were present at an FBI interview at Mr. McKenzie's office at one time?
Mrs. FORD - At Mr. McKenzie's office, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Was there a translator present when the FBI interviewed Marina?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; there is at the moment.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know his name?
Mrs. FORD - Mr. Gopadze.
Mr. LIEBELER - Has Marina discussed with you the questions that the FBI has been asking her?
Mrs. FORD - No; except this particular Mexican trip.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you anything about the details of that trip?
Mrs. FORD - On that trip--she did not go into details of the trip; but certain things about--she asked Lee to bring her a bracelet and he didn't, things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she say anything about a desire that Lee Oswald had to go to Cuba?
Mrs. FORD - Well, this is something that she talked about but I don't remember how--she said he wanted to actually go to Cuba. He wanted to get a visa to go to Russia but he would go to Russia by the way of Cuba, and she thought that he would stay in Cuba and not go to Russia.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina tell you what she was supposed to do when Oswald was in Cuba.
Mrs. FORD - Frankly, I don't know. I know that subject was discussed one time but I either had to go diaper the baby or something. I just cannot say--I know she tried to talk on this subject to Mr. Levine once and she explained it. It was a rather complicated sort of a thing and I cannot explain it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she express any fears that Oswald was going to leave her and go to Cuba and abandon her.
Mrs. FORD - There was a possibility--something she would stay here or something, and for a while, and we were asking her well, how did she intend to live while he was gone, and she thought, well, she said, well, Lee said, "You have a lot of Russian friends and they will help you," while he is not here, that was the conversation.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina ever speak of any plans that Oswald had to hijack an airplane and go to Cuba?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she said something like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - What did she say?
Mrs. FORD - Well, that was again, I believe she was discussing with Mr. Levine at the time about this Cuba and this airplane. It is again complicated, I don't think I can say it to make sense, somehow that he had to go, had to have enough gasoline or something to go there, not to make a stop anywhere. I could not say it to make any sense. I know she was talking about it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you ever talk to Robert Oswald about the assassination?
Mrs. FORD - No; we--we never discussed it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Robert Oswald never expressed to you any thoughts that he had on Lee Oswald's guilt or innocence?
Mrs. FORD - I understand he didn't like the cover of Life magazine and I was rather surprised because it was in my mind like it seems there is no question. Nobody knows very sure but I feel like it was Lee that did it. And he was rather angry about the statement there that it was a gun with which the President was killed, and he was rather angry about that cover, and that is why I thought that maybe he didn't believe that Lee killed him.
Mr. LIEBELER - That is the only discussion you had with Robert Oswald?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; that is the only one, that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you talked to Marina about any rifle practice that Lee Oswald may have engaged in?
Mrs. FORD - I didn't discuss it with him but she said that she didn't think that he went to a rifle practice. She told me that about a lot of things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she didn't think it was true about Lee being at practice.
Mr. LIEBELER - In Grand Prairie you are referring to?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - In Grand Prairie?
Mrs. FORD - That is right. She didn't think he was doing that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she say anything about him practicing with the rifle any place else?
Mrs. FORD - No; she didn't.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she mention that he had practiced with the rifle at Love Field?
Mrs. FORD - She didn't say anything.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Marina ever say anything to you that indicated she wanted to go back to Russia?
You said before that she told Lee Oswald that if he wanted to go back to Russia he could go but she wasn't going to go.
But did she ever indicate to you at any time she wanted to go back to Russia?
Mrs. FORD - She did not. Again the first call after the assassination she asked me, she said. "You know I have a visa, a pending visa, to go to Russia and if they will send it to me, I may have to go." I sort of answered her, I am pretty sure they wouldn't send her a visa now so she doesn't have to worry about it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Yesterday afternoon we discussed some of these things, did we not?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - You mentioned the fact that Marina Oswald had told you that at one time she was thinking about committing suicide?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she mentioned that.
Mr. LIEBELER - Tell us about that.
Mrs. FORD - She said she didn't want to have it published anywhere, she is rather ashamed of it. But there was a time after all the--I think it was before she went to New Orleans and before she lived at Paine's house, that there was a time that she didn't have any friends, all the Russian friends left her, I believe De Mohrenschildts were gone during that time, and that Lee was treating her rather badly at the time and she just felt like she had no way out.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you anything other than that? Did she tell you she actually tried to commit suicide or was it something she was thinking of?
Mrs. FORD - She didn't tell me the particulars but somehow Lee found out what was on her mind because he had beaten her again and told her only crazy people would consider doing a thing like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - She said Lee had found out she had thought of committing suicide?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she ever tell you how he found out?
Mrs. FORD - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did she indicate to you in any way that she had ever tried to do this?
Mrs. FORD - Well, she didn't tell me the particulars of it, I didn't want to, I mean I just didn't, ask her for all the details about it. But she was saying she was thinking about doing it at a certain time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Well, I don't want to press you too hard about it but there is quite a difference between thinking about doing it and actually doing it.
The CHAIRMAN - She didn't hear it, she didn't hear it, did she?
Mr. LIEBELER - That is right.
The CHAIRMAN - All right, that is enough.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you write to Marina at any time after the assassination?
Mrs. FORD - Did I write to her?
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes.
Mrs. FORD - I sent her a Christmas card; yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Any other letters?
Mrs. FORD - No; no letters.
Mr. LIEBELER - How many times have you been interviewed by the FBI, do you remember?
Mrs. FORD - FBI maybe twice. The first time, soon after the assassination; the same day that Lee Oswald was shot.
Actually we heard by radio, friends of ours had called us, anyone who knew Lee Oswald was supposed to come out and say it and call the FBI or the police. So we called the FBI and we said we did how and we came to the office ourselves and to talk about it.
Mr. LIEBELER - Have you been interviewed by the Secret Service?
Mrs. FORD - No; I don't think so.
Mr. LIEBELER - In our conversation yesterday we discussed your testimony and reviewed these matters. Is there anything you can remember that we discussed at that time that we have not talked about here now?
Mrs. FORD - I don't remember. I don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Is there any other information that you have that you think the Commission would like to know about, that we don't have relating to the assassination?
Mrs. FORD - I don't think there is anything of importance that you don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you have any papers relating to these matters other than I think you mentioned a copy of the letter that you translated for the American Civil Liberties Union, other than that paper, do you have any papers that might relate to these questions I asked you?
Mrs. FORD - No; I might have a copy of the letter that Marina was writing for--
Mr. LIEBELER - To Governor Connally?
Mrs. FORD - To Governor Connally, and it is just rather a translation in my own handwriting.
Mr. LIEBELER - On this point about the rifle practice, did Marina tell you simply that he did not practice at the range at Grand Prairie or he did not practice at any place with the rifle?
Mrs. FORD - I think she was talking about the particular range.
Mr. LIEBELER - Particularly Grand Prairie?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Mr. LIEBELER - And she didn't say anything about any other practice?
Mrs. FORD - She was telling me that people were--supposedly saw him in San Antonio and she knew for sure he wasn't there, and then she was saying they saw him at Grand Prairie practicing and she thought that he wasn't there, and then again in Ruby's place and she knew sure that Lee would never go to a place like that, things like that.
Mr. LIEBELER - I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN - Congressman Ford, do you have some questions for Mrs. Ford?
Representative FORD. - Mr. Chief Justice, I have one or two.
The CHAIRMAN - Proceed, please.
Representative FORD. - Did Marina Oswald ever tell you about her schooling in Russia?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; she did. I think that would be a junior college here. She would finish 7 or 8 years, I don't know exactly, and then I think it is 4 years in a junior college which would make her in my opinion an assistant pharmacist.
Representative FORD. - In other words, she went to the regular--
Mrs. FORD - School, yes.
Representative FORD. - Primary school?
Mrs. FORD - That is right.
Representative FORD. - Following that she went on to a secondary school.
Mrs. FORD - You don't have to finish primary school. Russian High School is 10 years, and if you want to specialize in some sort of assistant or technical work you would finish 7 or 8 years and then you would go 4 years after that, it is a finishing technical school, whether you would call it, where you would actually finish high school and at the same time you acquire some sort of a profession or technic, assistant to engineer or in this case assistant to a pharmacist.
Representative FORD. - But these were the only schools that she has ever indicated to you that she attended?
Mrs. FORD - I think so, that is right.
Representative FORD. - Did she ever indicate to you the participation that she had in the Komsomol.
Mrs. FORD - She said that she did join it and then she was kicked out or something.
Representative FORD. - Did she ever give you any reason why she was kicked out?
Mrs. FORD - She told me that one time but I don't--I have forgotten the reason, I really don't remember.
Representative FORD. - Was it an ordinary thing for a person to be kicked out of the Komsomol, so far as you know?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; I believe you have to be the sort, if you join it you have to perform your duty, you have to go the meetings and be sort of a leader in the community or in school or take on their work so if you don't do that, I think they just consider you not being a good young Komsomol. They wouldn't keep you there.
Representative FORD. - Did Marina ever tell you that she did or didn't join the Communist Party in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. FORD - She couldn't join it.
Representative FORD. - Why couldn't she join it?
Mrs. FORD - Well, not from my own experience but from what I know about it, I think you have to be over 20 years and you have to be 5 years, you have a 5-year waiting period until they check your background and see if you are good enough person to get by their standards to join the Party.
Representative FORD. - Did Marina ever discuss with you any schools or training programs that Lee participated in while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mrs. FORD - No; she never has said anything of that sort. I think she said one time that they wanted to send him to a school which would give him a profession but it had nothing to do with military or anything like that but somehow he didn't go there. But I have forgotten what he had to be so he was just working regular labor in the factory.
Representative FORD. - You don't recall anything, any details?
Mrs. FORD - I don't recall any details of the school.
Representative FORD. - You don't recall any of the details of the kind of school?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; but it was some sort of a civilian, it had nothing to do with military or espionage or anything like that that I remember.
Representative FORD. - At the time that Marina and June stayed with you and your husband in October or November of 1962, did Lee Oswald visit her at your home?
Mrs. FORD - No. He did not.
Representative FORD. - He called her?
Mrs. FORD - He called on the telephone.
Representative FORD. - Did anyone else visit her while she was staying at your home on this occasion?
Mrs. FORD - On this occasion, I think the only person who visited was Anna Ray to whom she was to go later after she stayed with me.
Representative FORD. - Excuse me, I didn't hear you.
Mrs. FORD - Anna Ray, that is another Russian-born person to whom Marina would go from my house, she came to visit her.
Representative FORD. - The individual who kept Marina after she left you?
Mrs. FORD - That is right, that is correct.
Representative FORD. - And his name was what?
Mrs. FORD - Her name.
Representative FORD. - What is the name?
Mrs. FORD - Anna Ray.
Representative FORD. - That is the only person who visited Marina during this period?
Mrs. FORD - At my house; yes.
Representative FORD. - I would like to clarify the time and the circumstances of this discussion you had with Marina about the Nixon affair.
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Representative FORD. - You had gone to Mr. McKenzie's office with Marina?
Mrs. FORD - That is right. I had gone translating for her; yes.
Representative FORD. - You were in Mr. McKenzie's office?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Representative FORD. - With Marina. Who else was there?
Mrs. FORD - And at that time she had a date with the FBI, and we were doing, I was translating some legal work for her about dismissing her old attorney and manager and the FBI called me to come later after we finished with that, and they told Marina why they wanted to talk with her, and McKenzie took us in that other office and he asked Marina about that, and told her that that is what she had to talk about, and she was really angry. She said the thought Robert had said, I mean she did not tell anybody about it, and she didn't want to talk about it, and now she has to talk about it to the FBI since Robert mentioned it.
Representative FORD. - In this meeting there was Mr. McKenzie?
Mrs. FORD - That is right. Mr. McKenzie, Marina and I.
Representative FORD. - Just the three of you?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
Representative FORD. - In a room in Mr. McKenzie's office?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; in one of the rooms in his office.
Representative FORD. - And Mr. McKenzie said what?
Mrs. FORD - Oh, I think that maybe frankly, I don't know what he was telling her.
Representative FORD. - Was this meeting only about the Nixon affair?
Mrs. FORD - I am very sorry, but I think that during that time when we were talking about that it was when he was talking about General Walker, that he was--it was not about Nixon that they talked about.
Representative FORD. - This meeting with Mr. McKenzie, when Marina and you were discussing matters--
Mrs. FORD - That was about General Walker.
I think Mr. McKenzie didn't know what they would talk about but he advised her "They will ask you if there were two guns, you tell them there was one gun that was used," he told her.
Representative FORD. - One gun used where?
Mrs. FORD - For Walker, I mean the same one they had at the house or something, frankly this is what I had--
Representative FORD. - I think you just said at the outset of this meeting the prime purpose or the principal purpose was to discuss the Walker affair.
Mrs. FORD - Yes; that is right.
Representative FORD. - How did the Nixon affair come up?
Mrs. FORD - I just can't recollect how.
Representative FORD. - Did McKenzie raise the question or did Marina raise it?
Mrs. FORD - How it was raised, I didn't get to discuss it with her about the particulars about it, except one time in the car, I don't remember how it came up and I was asking well how did that happen, and she was rather hesitating to talk about it, but she said, "Well, I locked him in the bathroom, and he was screaming or something, he was wanting to get out", and she tried to talk him out of it and he said, "if you are going to keep me in here just let me have a book to read", and I told her how did he get out later, she said, "Well, he rather cooled off and I talked him out of it."
Representative FORD. - You say this conversation took place in the car?
Mrs. FORD - Yes; this conversation right now took place in the car but I don't know how it got started, I have forgotten.
Representative FORD. - When you say it took place in the car, was it in the car going from Mr. McKenzie's to your home?
Mrs. FORD - That is right, to my home. She was staying at my place at this time.
Representative FORD. - Did she talk rather freely about this Nixon--
Mrs. FORD - She didn't talk about it freely, I thought she was rather hesitant about going into particulars.
Representative FORD. - Did she ever indicate why she had not discussed this incident with anybody, including the Commission?
Mrs. FORD - Well, right during that time, just before that, in the office, Mr. McKenzie, and I told her before that, "if you know anything that I think that would help either the Commission or the FBI I thought it my duty to tell them," and I told her that if she doesn't want me to say to anybody just don't talk to me about it, that is what I told her.
But because and maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me, Mr. McKenzie told it to her and had a written statement to her, too, if he feels there is anything he will have to say he will say it in connection with the President.
So it was said right before that, and I feel maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me.
Representative FORD. - That is all.
The CHAIRMAN - Mrs. Ford, you are an American citizen now, aren't you?
Mrs. FORD - Yes.
The CHAIRMAN - How did you acquire it, by marriage to your first soldier husband?
Mrs. FORD - No. I had to apply for it.
The CHAIRMAN - Where were you naturalized?
Mrs. FORD - In Dallas, Tex.
The CHAIRMAN - In the Federal court?
Mrs. FORD - That is correct.
The CHAIRMAN - When was that about?
Mrs. FORD - I have it on my bracelet, so I will give you the correct time, I got it in 1952.
The CHAIRMAN - In 1952?
Mrs. FORD - This I got on "This is Your Life". I was on "This is Your Life".
Representative FORD. - Mr. Chairman, I have one or two more questions.
The CHAIRMAN - Go right ahead.
Representative FORD. - I wish you could clarify, if you can, the comment you made about Marina mentioning two guns.
Mrs. FORD - She did not mention two guns ever to me or anything like that. But I don't know how or why he advised her to say that at all, I don't know, it was not clear to me.

Representative FORD. - When you say he, was that Mr. McKenzie?
Mrs. FORD - That is right, because the only reason--the only thing I remember about Marina was saying that Lee had laughed about the attempt to kill General Walker, that he said that they were even too stupid to find out what gun was used to kill him because it was written up a different type of gun was used other than the one really used by Lee.
Representative FORD. - Marina said that?
Mrs. FORD - That is right. Lee had commented on that they were not even smart enough to identify the gun by a bullet.
Representative FORD. - When did Marina say Lee said that?
Mrs. FORD - Well, soon after he--maybe that evening or the next day but I mean after he had attempted to shoot the General.
Representative FORD. - After he had attempted to shoot General Walker?
Mrs. FORD - That is right. And the bullet was found in the room and I suppose by the bullet they had tried to identify the gun or whatever he used to shoot him and it was identified wrong.
It was not, I don't know what kind of gun he used, frankly, I don't know, but he said, he just made a comment, they weren't even smart enough to identify the gun by the bullet.
Representative FORD. - Lee said that to Marina?
Mrs. FORD - To Marina, that is right.
Representative FORD. - Right after the incident?
Mrs. FORD - Right after the incident, that is correct.
Representative FORD. - And Marina told Mr. McKenzie that?
Mrs. FORD - I don't know.
Representative FORD. - You don't know?
Mrs. FORD - But I think right after that it was in the papers that a different type of gun was used, and to shoot the President was different again, there were supposedly two guns, you see, so maybe that is why he advised her, that he had only one gun. I really don't know how this came out.
The CHAIRMAN - That is all. Thank you very much for coming, you have been very helpful.
Mrs. FORD - I hope so. I frankly wish I had questioned her more but I didn't feel it was my duty, but I wanted to tell you what she said to me.
The CHAIRMAN - We will take a short recess