Testimony Of Karen Bennett
Carlin
The testimony of Karen Bennett Carlin was taken at 3:05 p.m., on April 15, 1964,
at the Post Office Building, Fort Worth, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Mrs. Carlin was accompanied by
her attorney, Mr. Alfred J. Jackson, Jr., and by her husband, Mr. Bruce Carlin.
Mr. Hubert.
This is the deposition of Karen Bennett Carlin. Let the record show that
Mrs. Carlin is accompanied by her husband, Mr. Bruce Carlin, and by Mr. Alfred
J. Jackson, Jr., attorney at law, in the firm of Tuchin & Jackson, suite 705,
Fair Building, Forth Worth 2, Tex., who is representing Mrs. Carlin. Mrs.
Carlin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
General Counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137,
and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission, in conformance with the
Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you, Mrs. Carlin.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to
ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of
President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In
particular as to you, Mrs. Carlin, the nature of the inquiry today is to
determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent
facts you may know about the general inquiry and in greater particularity, about
your conversation' by telephone and otherwise with Jack Ruby on the night of
the 23d of November, on the 24th of November, and the sending of money by
Western Union to you.
Now Mrs. Carlin, I know that you are expecting a baby, and that as a matter of
fact the time for the baby to be born is actually past. For that reason, I want
to state to you that if in the course of this deposition, which I do not think
will last very long anyhow, but if in the course of you feel the slightest
discomfort and wish to stop it or recess it, please don't hesitate to say so,
and we will accommodate you completely. You understand that?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Just any time you feel you want to stop the deposition, just let us know
right away.
Mrs. CARLIN.
Okay.
Mr. Hubert.
Now you have appeared here, I think, as a result of a letter addressed to
you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the President's Commission?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
You have received that letter, I think?
Mrs. CARLIN.
[Produces letter.]
Mr. Hubert.
Did you receive that letter more than 3 days ago?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Now you need not stand, but would you raise your right hand and I will swear
you in. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I do.
Mr. Hubert.
Mr. Jackson, it may be that you have not seen that, and if you wish to have
a moment to look it over----
Mr. JACKSON.
Go ahead.
Mr. Hubert.
Let the record show Mr. Jackson indicates he doesn't wish to stop now.
What is your name, please, ma'am?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Karen Lynn Carlin.
Mr. Hubert.
How old are you?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Twenty.
Mr. Hubert.
Where do you live, Mrs. Carlin?
Mrs. CARLIN.
1312 Fairmont.
Mr. Hubert.
At present I take it you are unoccupied?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you know a man by the name of Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; I did.
Mr. Hubert.
Would you state for the record now, ma'am, how you came to know him and how
long you have known him, and so forth.
Mrs. CARLIN.
It was through my husband that I came to know him. I was working at the
Theatre Lounge as a stripper and I didn't like the job there nor the employers,
so my husband had heard about the Carousel Club through girls that worked there
at the Theatre Lounge, so I went over and talked to Mr. Ruby and in turn I went
over and received a Job after talking to him.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember about when that was?
Mrs. CARLIN.
September?
Mr. JACKSON.
Answer on your own.
Mrs. CARLIN.
I don't know.
Mr. Hubert.
Was it in 1963?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Let me put it this way. Perhaps we can arrive at it this way. How long
before the death of the President did you start to work for Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I don't know. I would say about 2 months. I hadn't been there very long.
Mr. Hubert.
What sort of employment did you obtain with him?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Stripper.
Mr. Hubert.
What was your compensation for the job? I mean, was it salary?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It was salary. Seven days a week. It was $120 a week.
Mr. Hubert.
A hundred and twenty dollars a week and a 7-day week?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
On what day of the week were you paid?
Mrs. CARLIN.
On Saturdays.
Mr. Hubert.
Saturday nights?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Who paid you?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Jack Ruby.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
What was your understanding of his relation to Jack Ruby or to the
Carousel?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Well, as I understood it, I met him in the. office of Jack Ruby, and he was
supposed to be a friend from Chicago that had known him, and he just introduced
me as Ralph. And the only thing I knew was that he was a friend of Jack Ruby's.
I didn't know he had any connection with the club at all.
Mr. Hubert.
You don't know now?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you see this gentleman Ralph Paul only once?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. Before the killing of the President, I only saw him once. But after
that, I saw him all the time. He came in all the time.
Mr. Hubert.
You mean he was actually operating the club after?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes, afterwards.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you find out then that he was the owner and operator of a drive-in
restaurant called the Bull Pen at Arlington?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
You don't know that now?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
But in any case, prior to the time when Oswald was shot, you had met Paul
only once, and you don't know what his relationship was?
Mrs. CARLIN.
That's right.
Mr. Hubert.
About this young man called Andrew Armstrong, do you recall him?
Mrs. CARLIN.
The colored man?
Mr. Hubert.
Yes.
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
What was his function there?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Well, he was supposed to be the janitor to clean up and do little errands
and to run the bar. Afterwards, it turned out that he also had a part in running
the club.
Mr. Hubert.
You mean after?
Mrs. CARLIN.
After the President was killed.
Mr. Hubert.
You stayed on at the club until what date?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It was December. I quit--no, I couldn't say it was in December. It was right
before the first. It was a week before the first.
Mr. Hubert.
The first of the year?
Mrs. CARLIN.
January; yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you know a man by the name of Larry Crafard?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Not by name; no.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember Larry?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember a man that stayed there and slept on the premises?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I don't know of anyone that did. Andrew was the only one I knew that
ever spent the night there, and that was just because he would say so the next
evening. He said, "I am tired." Said, "I had to stay here all night."
Mr. Hubert.
I might add that this man Larry's full name was Curtis Laverne Crafard.
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. That was a little young boy, the one that worked the lights.
Mr. Hubert.
He stayed on the premises?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. But he stayed next door most of the time. I know he was sleeping there
for a while, but Jack put a stop to it.
Mr. Hubert.
You mean Jack wouldn't let him sleep in the club?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Jack didn't like him sleeping there, because there was too many things
gone.
Mr. Hubert.
Then he made him go next door?
Mrs. CARLIN.
He went next door. I don't know who was next door or what it was next door,
but he went next door.
Mr. Hubert.
But what you heard was that this man had, Crafard, Curtis Laverne Crafard
had been staying on the premises, but that Jack had put a stop to it and made
him move to some place next door, but you don't know which next door?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Who did you hear this from?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It was from Larry. He was taking care of the dogs or something.
Mr. Hubert.
He told you he had to move out?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Out of the premises altogether?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. He Just said, "I am going to have to move. I can't stay here. I don't
know where I am going to get the money, but I am going to have to move."
Mr. Hubert.
That must have happened just before the assassination of the President?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. After that I didn't see Larry no more.
Mr. Hubert.
So to your knowledge he never did actually move, but Just said he was going
to have to move, and he informed you that Jack had told him he would have to
move?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. JACKSON.
When you say move, you mean move out at night and not sleep there?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
That is what I meant, to move next door, I think is what you meant?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Now coming to the event of November 22, where were you? Do you recall when
you heard about the shooting of the President?
Mrs. CARLIN.
At home.
Mr. Hubert.
How did you hear it, on TV?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Television. No; I take that back. The first I heard was when I got the
telephone call.
Mr. Hubert.
Who did you receive a telephone call from?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Andrew.
Mr. Hubert.
Armstrong?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
What did he tell you, do you remember?
Mrs. CARLIN.
He just said that the President had been shot and we weren't going to open,
that we would open the next night, and I hung up.
Mr. Hubert.
In other words, it would be closed on Friday, but open on Saturday?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Anytime you want to interject any kind of comment, let me know and I will
stop. You did not speak to Ruby at that time?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. Andrew was calling from the club, he said, and just wanted to let all
the girls know that they needn't come to work.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you stay then in Fort Worth that night?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
I think you indicated' that Andrew did not tell you that the club would not
be open Saturday?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Saturday?
Mr. Hubert.
Saturday.
Mrs. CARLIN.
He said that it would probably be open Saturday. He said to call to make
sure.
Mr. Hubert.
He asked you to call to make sure?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you call?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
Instead, you came in?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. I tried to call. There wasn't anybody there in the evening, so I went
ahead and got ready and went to work.
Mr. Hubert.
How did you come?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Bus.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you come alone?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I didn't. I didn't come by bus. I came with Tammi True, another
stripper. She had to come over and collect her salary. She had been fixed by
Ruby, and she was coming over to get her salary, so she brought my husband, and
I went over to Dallas with her.
Mr. Hubert.
She had an automobile?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
She was living in Fort Worth?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
When had she been fired, do you know?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. She had been fired Thursday night.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you know why she was fired?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. There was a question about salary.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you mean she thought she should get more?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Where did you all park the automobile then?
Mrs. CARLIN.
In the car lot next door.
Mr. Hubert.
Nichols' car lot?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I don't know the name of it.
Mr. Hubert.
Well, what happened then?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Then we got to the club and the doors were locked, and there was no sign of
anybody being in there, so we thought.
Mr. Hubert.
About what time was it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It was about 8:30.
Mr. Hubert.
Was there a sign up saying that the club would be closed?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. They were closed, but it didn't say when or how long or when it would
open or anything on it. We went upstairs to the Carousel Club--I mean the Colony
Club next door and waited a few minutes hoping they would open up, thinking
possibly it would be late, and we would wait up there 30 or 40 minutes. And my
husband checked several times to see if they were open, and I said, "Tammy, if
you are broke,"---she knew how to get ahold of him, because she was broke. She
didn't have any salary.
Mr. Hubert.
You didn't have any money?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
None whatsoever?
Mrs. CARLIN.
We had a little change. I think 40 or 50 cents, change. And Tammy said she
didn't want----
Mr. Hubert.
Between you and your husband?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. And I asked Tammy how to get ahold of Jack and she gave me his home
phone, and that is when I tried to call Jack.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you reach him?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; I reached him at home. He answered the telephone. And I asked Jack if
we were going to be open, and he got very angry and was very short with me. He
said, "Don't you have any respect for the President? Don't you know the
President is dead?" And I said, "Jack, I am sorry. Andrew said that perhaps we
would be-open, and I don't have any money, and you know I am supposed to get
paid." And I wanted some money on my pay to get back home. And he said, "I don't
know when I will open. I don't know if I will ever open back up." And he was
very hateful. And he said something he had to come down to the club in about an
hour and for me to wait and he would see me then. And I hung up and told my
husband what had happened. and we waited and waited and he didn't show up. That
is when my husband and I went down to the garage and Tammi had to go see some
friend there at the Theatre Lounge.
Mr. Hubert.
This first call that you made was not made from the garage?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. It was made from the Colony Club.
Mr. Hubert.
So then you went over to the garage?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
What was the purpose of going there?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Because we wouldn't have any more money and we didn't want to sit up
there.
Mr. Hubert.
So then did you call Mr. Ruby again?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you or your husband?
Mrs. CARLIN.
My husband.
Mr. Hubert.
Were you present when your husband called?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you hear what your husband, at least, said on his end of the line?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; but I didn't pay much attention. I was sitting in the chair talking to
the man that was in there, the man that worked at the garage.
Mr. Hubert.
So you are not able to tell us really what happened on your husband's end of
the line?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
What happened after that?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Well, my husband then handed the phone to me and called me back to the phone
so I got on the telephone and Jack said, "Tell the man at the garage, put him
on the phone," and he said, "I will let you have $5 to get back home." And that
was all that was said, and he gave me $5, and I signed a receipt, and that was
all.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you talk to Jack about the rest of your salary?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
How much in fact was due at that time?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I don't remember. I had drew some on my salary. I wouldn't say for sure, but
I had drew some that week.
Mr. Hubert.
You were asking him not merely for $5, but all that was due you, I take
it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I was just asking him for an advance.
Mr. Hubert.
Oh, I see.
Mrs. CARLIN.
Because he had been nice to me and let me have an advance before, so I just
wanted an advance until he got the club back open.
Mr. Hubert.
Was your salary due at the end of the week or the beginning?
Mrs. CARLIN.
At the end of the week.
Mr. Hubert.
Wasn't your salary due that Saturday night?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I think it was; yes. I think I got paid on Saturday. It was either Saturday
or Monday, I don't remember, because I got my salary on Monday twice.
Mr. JACKSON.
Karen, could you have gotten paid on Sunday night?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It could have been Sunday. It was either Saturday or Sunday. I got paid
twice on Monday.
Mr. JACKSON.
On this particular night of November 23, on the telephone when you talked to
Jack and he said I will let you have $5 through the garageman and, you signed
the receipt, did you ask him for any given amount of money or just for some
money?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Just enough money to get back home on, and I happened to mention I would
need money for rent tomorrow, and he said to call him.
Mr. JACKSON.
Call him tomorrow?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. He didn't say what time.
Mr. Hubert.
In other words, on the Saturday night you did mention to him the question of
getting not merely the $5, enough to get back, but really a part of your
salary, which would become due whenever pay day was, whether it was Saturday
night or Sunday or Monday night?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Do I understand you that his remark was, "Well, I will let you have $5 now
and then call tomorrow?"
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Did he say that he would send you money the next day?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; he did--just said call him tomorrow and he would talk about that
tomorrow.
Mr. Hubert.
In other words, the call that he wanted you to make on Sunday was with
reference to your request for your pay?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
I gather that he was not disposed to talk about it then, but invited you to
call him the next day?
Mrs. CARLIN.
That's right.
Mr. Hubert.
And mentioned no time at all?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
All right, then, did you call him the next day?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; I did.
Mr. Hubert.
Well, where did you call him from?
Mrs. CARLIN.
From our home.
Mr. Hubert.
Where was that now?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I don't remember the address. Meadowbrook Drive.
Mr. Hubert.
Did Mr. Weldon Thompson---did you all have a phone listed in your own
name?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Bruce Carlin.
Mr. Hubert.
Was it listed in your husband's name?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
That phone you used?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
And you called Jack?
Mrs. CARLIN.
At home.
Mr. Hubert.
Is it a long distance call between Fort Worth and Dallas?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Hubert.
Charged to your phone, I take it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember what time you called him?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It was 10. I think it was around 10 or 10:05 or 10:15, something like that.
It was between that time.
Mr. Hubert.
Would you be able to say with any degree of accuracy that it could not have
been earlier than 10?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It could have been. I am not going to say for sure.
Mr. Hubert.
Well, the fact of the matter is, the phone records show--I don't have them
before me, but the phone records show it was about that time. Could you just
tell us the gist of the conversation with Jack on that occasion.
Mrs. CARLIN.
Well, Jack answered the telephone. And I told him who it was, and he said,
"Yes, well," and I said, "I have called, Jack, to try to get some money, because
the rent is due and I need some money for groceries, and you told me to
call."
And he said, "How much will you need?" And I said--I'll ask my husband, and then
I said about "$25."
Mr. Hubert.
Your husband was in the room with you?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. He was in the part of the front part of the house. And he said, "Well,
I have to go downtown anyway, so I will send it to you by Western Union." And he
asked me what name to send it in, and I told him, "Karen Bennett."
Mr. Hubert.
Was it arranged to be sent to your home or what?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; to Western Union downtown.
Mr. Hubert.
Did he tell you about what time to expect it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. I asked him what time, about how long, and he didn't say.
Mr. Hubert.
You mean he didn't say anything, or he said he didn't know?
Mrs. CARLIN.
He said, "Well," he did say it would take a little while to get dressed and
something about the dog, I don't remember what it was. And he said, "I'll go on
down and send it to you." And I said, "I sure would appreciate it." And that is
about all there was.
Mr. Hubert.
Now was your rent in fact due?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Had your landlord been pressing you for the rent?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
Did Ruby seem to be annoyed that you were asking for money on Sunday?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; he not that Sunday, he didn't seem to be annoyed.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you think that there was a difference in his attitude toward the money
that you asked for on Sunday as opposed to the money you asked for the night
before?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. He still seemed upset, you know, or hateful, short, but he didn't seem
as much as he was Saturday night.
Mr. Hubert.
He definitely indicated to you that he would have to dress, is that
correct?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. He said, "It will take me about 20 or 30 minutes to get dressed, and
then I will go on down." And something that he had to do with the dogs' freedom,
I think.
Mr. JACKSON.
About the dogs?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. He had some dogs. Kept them in the club.
Mr. Hubert.
Now when did you first hear about Oswald's shooting?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Well, I heard that right after I talked to Jack. It wasn't very long after
that on the television, and my husband was watching the television and I was
washing dishes, and my husband said, "Karen, isn't that Jack?" And I said, I
thought he was joking. I told him to shut up and I started laughing, and sure
enough it came out that it was Jack.
Mr. Hubert.
You mean you saw pictures of Jack Ruby?
Mrs. CARLIN.
After that on the news.
Mr. Hubert.
Rerun, you mean?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
You are talking about that famous picture that shows Jack coming
through?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
It shows really the back of him, doesn't it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Were you able to recognize him?
Mrs. CARLIN.
They knew his name. They had already broadcast his name.
Mr. Hubert.
So that when you saw, you recognized him? You mean you recognized his name
before you saw any picture?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. My husband was the one that first saw him. I didn't see it. It was a
rerun, I think, that I saw, because they already had his name and that he had
the Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert.
This was prior to the time you went to Western Union?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I had not gone down to Western Union.
Mr. Hubert.
This was prior?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
What did you do about the money at Western Union?
Mrs. CARLIN.
After I saw the thing on television, I said I bet Jack didn't send the
money, so my husband dialed the number and he asked if they had a money order
for me, and they said, "Yes."
Mr. Hubert.
You mean dialed the number to the Western Union?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. And he said, "Yes, they did." Then my-husband and I got dressed and
after we ate, we got dressed and went down and picked it up.
Mr. Hubert.
Well.
Mr. JACKSON.
About what time was this call made, do you remember?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. JACKSON.
Could it have been in the afternoon?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. It probably was in the afternoon, because after I talked to Jack, we
ate and washed dishes, and I cleaned up the house, and it took me a while to get
dressed.
Mr. Hubert.
Then you all went down to Western Union?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
You signed the necessary papers?
Mrs. CARLIN.
We had to take a bus down, so that took quite a while, too. I don't remember
what time it was.
Mr. Hubert.
Was the money paid to the landlord, do you know?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; we paid the rent.
Mr. Hubert.
That same day?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I don't remember if it was the same day or not.
Mr. Hubert.
Well, did you keep the money, or did you give it to your husband?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I gave it to my husband. We didn't have enough money to get back on the bus,
so we had to take some of it and go back on the bus.
Mr. Hubert.
I don't follow you.
Mrs. CARLIN.
We rode a bus downtown, and we had enough money to get downtown, but not
enough to get back.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you have to use part of the $25 to get back, but you gave the difference
to him?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Had your landlord been pressing you for the money?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. It wasn't just the rent. It was groceries, too, because my husband
wasn't working at the time.
Mr. Hubert.
You had not known Jack Ruby, I take it, prior to the time you first went to
work for him?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. I had seen Jack Ruby one other time before that, but I didn't know who
he was.
My girl friend and I, a stripper, at the Theatre Lounge, w.as walking to the bus
stop at the Greyhound bus station to get something to eat during our hour
break, and we were walking, and this big Cadillac drove up and tooted the horn
and my girl friend smiled and it turned out to be Jack Ruby after I met him. I
knew who it was. But he left a card on the sidewalk in front of us saying the
Carousel Club.
Mr. Hubert.
How long before you went to work for him, then, did that episode take
place?
Mrs. CARLIN.
This was about 2 weeks before, because I went home and told my husband about
it.
Mr. Hubert.
He was driving a Cadillac?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. There was three of them in the car, two men and one woman. I never did
see the man or woman, didn't recognize them.
Mr. Hubert.
Who was driving?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It was Jack. It turned out to be Jack. I asked him if he was the one that
was driving the car and threw the card on the sidewalk, and he said, "Yes, I
was."
Mr. Hubert.
Did you ever find out who the other people were in the car?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I never did ask him.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you find out subsequently what kind of car Jack drove?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
This was definitely a Cadillac?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. It could have been the other person's car he was driving.
Mr. Hubert.
There was one man?
Mrs. CARLIN.
There was two men.
Mr. Hubert.
Two men besides Jack?
Mrs. CARLIN.
One besides Jack. Looked like a redheaded woman. After I saw Jack later--at
that time I thought it was a stripper, but I don't know.
Mr. Hubert.
They were all riding in the front of the car?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
The girl was in the middle, I take it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
That was about 2 weeks after that that you went to work for him?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you mention the name of the girl who was with you at that time? I think
you did.
Mrs. CARLIN.
It could have been Jada.
Mr. Hubert.
I meant the girl that you were walking with?
Mrs. CARLIN.
She was a stripper. I don't remember her name. She had a hose act. I don't
remember her name.
Mr. Hubert.
Kathy Kay?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. My husband could probably--it was Liza Sommers, because he adored her
little act.
Mr. Hubert.
Liza?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Sommers.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember Wally Weston?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember when he left?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. I wasn't there when he left. You are talking about the Carousel
Club?
Mr. Hubert.
Yes.
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. I was never there when he performed there.
Mr. Hubert.
In other words, he left before you got there?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; I met him after he left there and went in the theatre.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember a time when a man by the name of Rocco came to the Carousel
and took quite a number of pictures of Ruby and the girls and the acts and so
forth?
Mrs. CARLIN.
There was so many people taking pictures all the time, that I don't
know.
Mr. Hubert.
This was--this man was from a magazine or at least he was attempting--this
was quite some time prior to the assassination, but he came there and--as an
advertising stunt or something of the sort, and took quite a number of pictures.
Do you remember that?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; because I remember two or three different ones that came before this
ever happened, so I don't know who you are talking about. But they were all
supposed to be from some kind of magazine.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember a picture of you and Tammi True and Jack together when Jack
was sitting in his office in a chair and Tammi was on one side and you were on
the other in sort of a crouch?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember that picture?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
About when was that taken, do you remember?
Mrs. CARLIN.
That was before the shooting of the President.
Mr. Hubert.
Oh, yes; I know. But how much longer, do you know?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I don't know. I am not any good on times or anything.
Mr. Hubert.
Could you tell us whether it was--how long after you went to work for Jack
was that picture taken? Now I am talking about the one that I have just
described with Ruby in the middle and Tammi on one side and you on the
other?
Mrs. CARLIN.
There was never one taken with Tammi. The only one I had taken was
with--what is her name the one that was pregnant.
Mr. Hubert.
The large redheaded girl, the one that appeared in a magazine?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I can't place her name.
Mr. Hubert.
Joy?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes, Joy.
Mr. Hubert.
McDonald?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I can't think of it.
Mr. Hubert.
Her stage name was Joy Dale?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
That is the one I meant. I said Tammi True, but I was mistaken myself. She
had dark curly hair?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Well, now, as to that picture, can you relate the time of taking that
picture to the time when you first went to work there?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I guess it was a month after that, I know. At least, but I don't know
how much longer after that.
Mr. Hubert.
You don't know whether it was summertime or----
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; it was winter.
Mr. Hubert.
It was winter?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; it was getting cold.
Mr. Hubert.
Can you relate it--I think I have asked you this before, but perhaps your
memory is fresher now. Can you relate it to the time of the death of the
President?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I Would say 2 or 3 weeks before the death of the President.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember a rather large heavy fat man, very heavily built, who used
to come to the Carousel almost every weekend and used to sit close by the stage
and sort of carry on a banter with the theatre?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you know who he is?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; about 300 pounds.
Mr. Hubert.
Yes.
Mrs. CARLIN.
Used to beat on the stage and holler and scream. I don't remember--I don't
know his name. I never did meet him, but I remember him.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you know George Senator?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Not by name. I probably. would know his face, but I don't know his name.
Mr. Hubert.
You don't know what his relationship was to Ruby?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
Then do you know--and I don't mean from your own knowledge at all, but from
what you might have heard. what Jack's relationship in general with people of
the opposite sex was? What his relationship with girls was?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I would rather not answer it.
Mr. Hubert.
That is all right. Mind you, I want it clear I was not asking in relation to
anything with respect to you yourself, but as to what you have heard?
Mr. JACKSON.
Did he ever make any advances towards you?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; one time.
Mr. JACKSON.
In other words, he did do that with the girls occasionally--make advances
toward them?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. JACKSON.
Proposition them?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; I knew of them going with him.
Mr. JACKSON.
Dating them?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. JACKSON.
He did date them some?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. JACKSON.
Did you know or had you heard anything concerning the possibility of any
kind of homosexuality on the part of Jack?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. JACKSON.
Is that just a rumor running out there, or what?
Mrs. CARLIN.
That was from his mouth. He was always asking the question, "Do you think I
am a queer? Do you think I look like a queer? Or have you ever known a queer to
look like me?" Everytime I saw him he would ask it.
Mr. JACKSON.
Do you mean he would bring up the subject himself?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; he would say, "Do you think I look like one or act like one?"
Mr. JACKSON.
Did he say he was?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; he just asked me, "Do I look like one."
Mr. JACKSON.
But he never admitted to you of being one?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. JACKSON.
Or ever made any statements that indicated that he was a homosexual?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Not to my knowledge.
Mr. JACKSON.
What you have told us here is all that you know about his abnormality, if
any?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Can you throw any light upon his character with respect to whether he had a
good temper or easygoing temper or quick temper?
Mrs. CARLIN.
tie was very quick tempered.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you have occasion to observe that yourself?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Could you give us just one or two examples that would serve to illustrate
why you have the impression that he was quick tempered.
Mrs. CARLIN.
Well, the time that makes me think he was so quick tempered there was two
times.
One was with Tammi True. Tammi had---Joy Dale had been out of work for about a
week. She had played sick, and this was known all over the club, so Tammi True
was supposed to be taking their act. And Joy Dale's act, making it hard on all
of us. So Tammi went to Jack, and I was sitting in the office when she said,
"Jack, I am going to be 5 minutes late for my show," and Jack said, "Okay." So
she went to the back to get dressed, and I went back right after that, and he
came back--the music started--he didn't tell the band like he was supposed to,
so the music went ahead and started for Tammi to go on, and that upset her. And
Jack came back and said, "What the blank-blank * * *"
Mr. Hubert.
Used some obscene words?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
I take it you prefer not to use it yourself?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Was it obscene?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; and she said, "Well, I had already told you that I was going to be late
and you were supposed to let the band know, and you are blaming me." And Jack
said something else like, "Hurry up and get your ass dressed."
Mr. Hubert.
And there again you used an obscene term which I take it you don't care to
use yourself, in reference to her?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; and she then turned around and Jumped on him and said, "If you can let
Joy Dale hold out a whole week and make all of us suffer, you can damn sure wait
on me." And he said, "You are not going to con me. You may con other people,
but you are not going to con me." And he stormed out of the room. So the
following show she was deliberately late, and he came back and raised cane
again, and he said something about he was going to fire her if she didn't
straighten up, that she thought she could use him, and that is about all that
was said. They kept fussing back and forth and calling each other haines.
Mr. Hubert.
I take it from that that his manifestation of temper was first in the use of
obscenity, and second in a loud tone of voice?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; screaming.
Mr. Hubert.
Did he manifest on that occasion or any occasion that he might use physical
force, or did he ever as a matter of fact?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I never saw him raise his hand to hit anybody or anything like that,
although with Tammi, he did say he would throw her down the stairs if she didn't
straighten up. And she said, "I don't have to leave. I have a contract." And he
said, "That contract don't mean a God damn thing."
Mr. JACKSON.
You don't have to use those words.
Mr. Hubert.
I think you said that that was one example. Do you have any others?
Mrs. CARLIN.
With Joy Dale.
Mr. Hubert.
Could you tell us about that?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It was about the same thing. She had came back to work and was supposed to
be pregnant and sick, and she was dying, so she came in, she was late for her
first show, and Jack didn't say anything, and all of us girls were mad and
wouldn't talk to her. So she did her first show, and she was supposed to be
hurting bad and she wanted to get out of the second show, and Just came back
from the week after staying out, and she went to Jack, and you could hear her
plumb to the opposite office.
There was a wall, and you could hear her there fussing and cussing because she
wanted to take off the second show. And he told her she had been off a week and
he couldn't afford to pay her salary when she wasn't doing a job at all. And he
said, "If you don't like your job, you know what you could do."
Mr. Hubert.
Was that an indication that there might have been some relationship between
them other than business?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. Well, I know it wasn't hearsay. I know that they were going together,
and Joy was using this over his head.
Mr. JACKSON.
How do you know this?
Mrs. CARLIN.
She told me, and also Jack made indications that he was going with her.
Mr. Hubert.
That she went to his apartment or he went to hers?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Only what Joy would tell me, and Joy was a big liar. She was known to lie
about things that she had no reason to lie about. She would lie about men making
passes just to make the girls ask her questions and be the center of attention,
so I wouldn't say she was telling the truth when she said anything.
Mr. Hubert.
Had you ever met Jack's sister, Eva Grant?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
You know of her?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
You never met her?
Mrs. CARLIN.
After the President's killing, I did.
Mr. Hubert.
How did you come to meet her then?
Mrs. CARLIN.
She was at the club and she was having an argument with Ralph. I believe it
was either Ralph or the other gray-haired guy. I don't know his name---about the
club. That it was her club, she was going to run it, and Ralph was saying he
was left in charge of the club, and as long as he was financing the club, she
wasn't going to run it. And there was an argument between her and one of the
girls about the fact that she wasn't going to work for Eva because she had tried
to work for Eva and it wouldn't work.
Mr. Hubert.
Could you tell me something about the gray-haired man other than the one you
identified as Ralph Paul?
Mrs. CARLIN.
This was a--I don't know his name. He was in there quite a bit after the
President's killing. He was in there almost every night. He was supposed to be
one of Jack's closest friends or supposed to have lived with Jack.
Mr. Hubert.
That wouldn't have been Senator, would it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I don't know.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you ever hear that perhaps that man was one of his brothers?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. It wasn't one of his brothers.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you remember anything further about him?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I don't, because I never did talk to him but once, and that was Just
about then. He was there a lot of times at the door. He took all the cover.
charges after that. Either him or Ralph was taking cover charges.
Mr. Hubert.
Did he seem to be in authority?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; he didn't have authority. He thought he did, but he didn't, because
Ralph would tell him to do what was done.
Mr. Hubert.
Had you ever seen him at the Carousel prior to the time that Oswald was
shot?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. Just two or three times. He was sitting down at a table next to the
cashier, where the cash register was. He was sitting there with the guy that Joy
Dale was going with. I don't remember his name, but it was a young boy. Tommy
something.
Mr. Hubert.
That is the gray-haired man you saw sitting with a young man called
Tommy?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Who was Joy Dale's boy friend?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes. They were supposed to get married.
Mr. Hubert.
And you saw them, this gray-haired man and Tommy, several times
together?
Mrs. CARLIN.
About two or three times, I would say.
Mr. Hubert.
How long before the President's death?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Oh, I don't know. I never did pay that much attention to him.
Mr. Hubert.
Were they always together, those two?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I wouldn't say they were together. He just was sitting there. I don't know
whether they left together or nothing, whether they were friends or not.
Mr. Hubert.
But they were sitting at the same table?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
You wouldn't remember if the two or three times prior to the President's
death that you saw them together were consecutive nights or not, would you?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; I never did pay that much attention to either one of them.
Mr. Hubert.
Would you think those two or three times, whatever they were, that you saw
Tommy and the gray-haired man together, would have been within a week prior to
the President's death?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I wouldn't say, because I didn't pay that much attention.
Mr. Hubert.
But in any case, the gray-haired man that you have been referring to
subsequently had really a job with the club? That is to say----
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; not at that time, he wasn't.
Mr. Hubert.
I mean later. I said subsequently.
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
After Oswald was killed then this same gray-haired man had a job collecting
the cover charges at the front door?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Whether he was paid for it or not, he was doing it.
Mr. Hubert.
And he seemed to be, so far as you could tell, under the authority of
Paul?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Ralph?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Ralph.
Mr. Hubert.
Ralph Paul?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Well, I don't know anything about Ralph.
Mr. Hubert.
How old a man is Ralph? Are you feeling bad?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No. He is about 40 or 45, I would say.
Mr. Hubert.
Ralph Paul is?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; between 40 and 45. He is old. He is old to me.
Mr. JACKSON.
I think that is the age of the interrogator.
Mrs. CARLIN.
I am sorry, but he is old to me. Gray-halted and being so fat.
Mr. JACKSON.
The closer you get to it, the younger it is.
Mr. Hubert.
Have you seen Ruby since Oswald was shot?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Only in court.
Mr. Hubert.
You testified in court?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Two; I went to two different court hearings.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you testify twice or once?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Twice.
Mr. Hubert.
Was the first one on the insanity hearing, I suppose?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I don't know what the hearing was on. I think it was on the bond hearing. He
was trying to get out on bond.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you testify at his actual trial in the latter part of February and the
first part of March?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Could you tell us what was the general nature of your testimony there?
Mrs. CARLIN.
The same thing that has been asked here.
Mr. Hubert.
Had you been interviewed by Mr. Belli prior?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No; the only time I talked to Belli was on the bond hearing.
Mr. Hubert.
But you haven't talked to Jack Ruby since you talked to him on the phone on
Sunday the 24th?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I can't say the last time I talked to him.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you know Billy DeMar?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
He was one of the Emcee's there?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Of course, you have heard the rumors that he is supposed to have said that
he had seen Oswald in the club prior to the shooting of the President?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you see pictures of Oswald afterward?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Did you ever see anybody who looked like that man in the Carousel?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Well, just like I told the FBI, I have seen someone that looked like him.
Whether it was him or whether I have seen him, he could favor anybody, you know.
I have seen the face, something that looked, someone that looked like him, and
I am not going to say it was in the club or where it was at, but I have seen
someone that looked like him.
Mr. Hubert.
Of course, you didn't know Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
If you get tired, let me know, and we will stop. Let me ask you some
concluding questions and we will take a little recess and I will gather my
thoughts and see if we have anything more. Have you been interviewed by any
member of the Commission's staff prior to today?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
Mrs. Carlin, I have in my hand a document consisting of two pages which
purport to be a copy of a report of an interview of you by Special FBI Agents
Peggs and Zimmerman on November 26, 1963, which for the purpose of
identification I am marking as follows: Fort Worth, Texas, April 15, 1964,
Exhibit 5318, Deposition of Karen B. Carlin. Do you spell your name with a "K"
or "C"?
Mrs. CARLIN.
K-a-r-e-n C-a-r-l-i-n.
Mr. Hubert.
Your first name is spelled with a "K", but your last name is spelled with a
"C"?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
And I am signing my name below that, for the purpose of identifi-tion. On
the second page thereof, in the lower right-hand corner I am placing my
initials. Mrs. Carlin, I will ask you if you have had an opportunity, with your
attorney, Mr. Jackson, to read this statement?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Is this statement a fair statement of the interview that you had with the
FBI agents?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Do you see anything in it, and I will ask your attorney to assist you, since
he helped you to read it and went over it, do you see anything that needs to be
changed, adjusted, or modified?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; the part where it says, "Just for rent."
Mr. Hubert.
You are referring to a sentence in the third paragraph about the middle of
that paragraph which reads as follows, to w.it: "She called Ruby again on
Sunday, November 24, 1963, at 10 or 10:30 a.m. as she needed money to pay her
rent." Now that is the sentence that you are referring to, is that correct?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
What comment do you wish to make about it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Well, I didn't ask him for just money for the rent. It was for groceries
also.
Mr. Hubert.
You actually mentioned to him that it was for groceries as well as for
rent?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
All right, do you have any other parts that you wish to change?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; the last sentence in the third paragraph.
Mr. Hubert.
Now you are speaking of the sentence which reads as follows, to wit: "Karen
used her Texas driver's license as identification." What comments do you wish to
make about that, Mrs. Carlin?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It was a California driver's license.
Mr. Hubert.
All right, are there any other parts of that statement which are incorrect
or need modification?
Mr. JACKSON.
The fourth paragraph, first sentence which reads as follows: "At the time
she talked with Ruby, Sunday morning, she asked him if the club was going to be
open Sunday night. He became upset regarding this, then talked harshly to her,
indicating that he did not feel she was showing the proper respect toward the
deceased President."
Mr. Hubert.
What comment do you wish to make about that sentence?
Mrs. CARLIN.
It was not Sunday that he said anything about the President. It was Saturday
night that he talked real harshly regarding the President.
Mr. Hubert.
Do I understand you to say then that when you spoke to him on Sunday
morning, that the subject of the President was not mentioned at all?
Mrs. CARLIN.
That's right. He just sounded preoccupied and upset.
Mr. JACKSON.
That was on Sunday that he sounded preoccupied?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; he sounded distant. In other words, I called him back twice.
Mr. Hubert.
You called him back twice on Sunday?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes; I am talking about when he was talking to me. I would say, "Jack, are
you still there?" Or "Jack," to get his attention back. He seemed like he was
busy.
Mr. Hubert.
I gather from that that when you would speak to him on the phone, you didn't
get a response, so it gave you the impression that he wasn't there?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
So you would repeat your question?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Are there any other parts of this statement that you would like to make any
comments about?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
Do I understand that other than the corrections that have been made, that
this statement contains the truth, so far as you know it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. Hubert.
Is there anything you think should be deleted from it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
Now Mrs. Carlin, is there anything else you would like to say about any
aspect that we have been talking about, or any fact that you might know that you
have not heretofore stated to anyone?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Nothing that I can think of.
Mr. JACKSON.
Excuse me just a minute.
(Mr. Jackson and witness whisper to each other.)
Mr. Hubert.
May I see you a minute, Mr. Jackson?
(Mr. Jackson and Mr. Hubert confer off the record.)
Mr. Hubert.
One more question, Mrs. Carlin. Did anyone ask you or suggest to you,
directly or indirectly, that you make this call on Sunday morning to Mr. Ruby,
or is it that you made this call for the purpose which you have already
stated?
Mrs. CARLIN.
The purpose of the call was for which I have already stated.
Mr. Hubert.
No one suggested that you make it?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Jack told me to call him the following day.
Mr. Hubert.
But other than Jack no one else did?
Mrs. CARLIN.
No.
Mr. Hubert.
All right, Ma'am, I think that is all.
Mrs. CARLIN.
There is one thing I would like to clear up, what I said a while ago. A
while ago you asked me did Jack Ruby make a pass. It was not a pass, It was just
asking me. It was not kissing or anything like that.
Mr. Hubert.
I don't think I asked you that question. I think Mr. Jackson did.
Mr. JACKSON.
In other words, he just asked you for a date, is that right?
Mrs. CARLIN.
Yes.
Mr. JACKSON.
And you refused him?
Mr. JACKSON.
And that is the only time he ever made any advances toward you
whatsoever?
Mrs. CARLIN.
That's right.
Mr. Hubert.
Now we have the transportation to take Mrs. Carlin back if she would like to
go right away.
Mr. JACKSON.
Do you want to go right now?
Mrs. CARLIN.
I will wait until Bruce gets through.
Mr. Hubert.
If you want, you can sit right where you are.
Mrs. CARLIN.
Okay.