TESTIMONY OF HOWARD LESLIE BRENNAN RESUMED

The President's Commission reconvened at 2:05 p.m.
Mr. McCLOY. The purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of Mr. Brennan here and you gentlemen.
Mr. Williams has already appeared before us, and Mr. Norman and Mr. Jarman and also Mr. Truly who will be on the stand later.
You were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination of President Kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you.
Mr. BALL. The record will show that Harold Norman, whose nickname is Hank, is present and Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, whose nickname is Junior. Mr. Brennan is also.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, you testified here this morning, is that correct?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. McCLOY. You are still under oath, Mr. Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. I believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the School Book Depository Building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct?
The two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I believe it is the one on the end and this one here, I am not sure.
Mr. BELIN. By that you would mean--
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't know which of those two.
Mr. BALL. Let's identify.

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Mr. BELIN. Which person do you mean, you mean Mr. Norman sitting opposite?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; I believe he was one of them.
Mr. BELIN. And you believe it was Mr. Jarman together?
Mr. BRENNAN. Jarman.
Mr. BELIN. Were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were.
Mr. BELIN. You saw them together come out of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. I don't believe they were. I don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them.
Mr. BELIN. Now you do not believe then that it was Mr. Williams?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; I won't say for sure. I can't tell which of those two it was.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was Mr. Williams or Mr. Norman, did you just see one person or two?
Mr. BRENNAN. I saw two but I can't identify which one it was.
Mr. BELIN. Could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I think it was one of them. I think it was this boy on the end.
Mr. BELIN. You thought it was Mr. Norman. And what about Mr. Jarman?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was him, too. Am I right or wrong?
Mr. BALL. I don't know.
Mr. BRENNAN. I explained that to you this morning.
Mr. BALL. I understand.
Any questions?
Mr. McCLOY. Did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the school book depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the two boys that I am speaking of now.
Mr. McCLOY. That you are speaking of now?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. You saw these two men in the fifth-floor window and you saw them again on the first floor?
Mr. BRENNAN. Coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out on the street, those were the only two people I could identify.
Mr. BELIN. I hand you--
Mr. BRENNAN. I recall seeing three people with you I--
Mr. BELIN. I hand you Exhibit 477 which you testified to this morning was a recent picture taken of the Texas School Book Depository Building on March 20. This is you sitting on that concrete wall?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. At first I believe this morning you thought that you saw one person or two people at the point marked B, and then you later said it was to the window which would be to the--
Mr. BRENNAN. Left.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let's talk about directions. This direction here would be to the east and this direction here would be to the west?
Mr. BRENNAN. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Would it be a window to the east or west?
Mr. BRENNAN. I believe it was a window to the east.
Mr. BELIN. So you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window here to the east of the window that you first marked B?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes. I am not positive.
Mr. BELIN. You are not positive?
Mr. BRENNAN. No.
Mr. REDLICH. Mr. McCloy, may I have permission to ask this question of this witness?
Mr. McCLOY. Very well.
Mr. REDLICH. You stated that you saw two employees walking down the steps of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether the two employees that you saw walking

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down the steps of the building were the same two employees that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the easterly most end of the building?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two windows. The one I circled or this window here.
Mr. REDLICH. You mean two of the people that you--
Mr. BRENNAN. At one of the windows I saw two, two of those people, employees that came down.
Mr. REDLICH. But you are not prepared to state which of these three possible windows?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is right.
Mr. REDLICH. By three, I mean the two windows to the east, plus the one window which is circled and marked with a B.
Mr. BRENNAN. Nothing makes me think that they were in this window but I am in question whether it was this window or this window.
Mr. REDLICH. And of the two people that you saw, it is possible you are saying that one might have been in the window marked B and another might have been in a window to the east?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. REDLICH. Thank you.
Mr. BELIN. Mr. Brennan, are you basing your recollection on what you saw during the moments that the shots were fired or on what you saw when you observed these windows prior to the time the motorcade arrived?
Mr. BRENNAN. What I saw prior. There was no significance to the fact at all. In other words, there is a little difference in your memory there on this.
Mr. BALL. No questions.
You may be excused, Mr. Brennan.
You two men can also be excused and we will call you in a few moments, Mr. Jarman.
Mr. REDLICH. We don't need Mr. Williams at all.
Mr. BALL. We don't need you at all.
Mr. REDLICH. We may want him back.
Mr. BELIN. Don't get too far away.