TESTIMONY OF F. M. TURNER

The testimony of F. M. Turner was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 3, 1994, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel office President's Commission.
Mr. BELIN. Do you want to stand and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. TURNER. I do.
Mr. BELIN. Would you please state your name.
Mr. TURNER. F.M. Turner.
Mr. BELIN. Where do you live, Mr. Turner?
Mr. TURNER. I live at Garland, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. That is a suburb of Dallas?
Mr. TURNER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. What is your occupation?
Mr. TURNER. Detective of the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. BELIN. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. TURNER. About 13 years this September.
Mr. BELIN. How old are you?
Mr. TURNER. Thirty-five.
Mr. BELIN. Married?
Mr. TURNER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Family?
Mr. TURNER. Right?
Mr. BELIN. Where were you born?
Mr. TURNER. Murphy, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Spent all your life in Texas?
Mr. TURNER. Except for a couple of years in the service.
Mr. BELIN. Was that after you got out of high school?
Mr. TURNER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. How far did you go in high school?
Mr. TURNER. Finished.
Mr. BELIN. You finished high school?
Mr. TURNER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. Went in the service.
Mr. BELIN. Was that high school in Murphy?
Mr. TURNER. No; it was Plano, Tex.
Mr. BELIN. Then you went in the service?
Mr. TURNER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. In the Army or Navy?
Mr. TURNER. Coast Guard.
Mr. BELIN. Coast Guard?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?
Mr. TURNER. I was a storekeeper.
Mr. BELIN. Did you get an honorable discharge?
Mr. TURNER. Right.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. When I first came out, I went to work as a carpenter's helper up

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around Plano there. I worked at that a short while. And then I worked for the Plano Lumber Yard in Richardson, Tex., and I worked there until I came to work for the police department.
Mr. BELIN. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr. TURNER. I was.
Mr. BELIN. Did you have anything to do with the motorcade?
Mr. TURNER. I did; yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What was your position?
Mr. TURNER. I was riding in the pilot car of the motorcade, possibly 3 minutes in front of the motorcade.
Mr. BELIN. Who else was with your car?
Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin from our department.
Mr. BELIN. Is he an assistant chief of police?
Mr. TURNER. Deputy chief of police.
Mr. BELIN. Anyone else?
Mr. TURNER. My partner, Detective B.L. Shekel, and an Army major whose name I do not remember.
Mr. BELIN. You went to Love Field to meet the President?
Mr. TURNER. In the car also was a Secret Service man, whose name I do not remember. Yes, sir; I did go to Love Field to meet the President.
Mr. BELIN. You saw the plane arrive?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You got prepared to leave a little bit ahead of time of the motorcade?
Mr. TURNER. We did. We drove to a gate on the outward edge of Love Field and waited until we got some radio contact from the chief. They were about ready to leave, and we had a running start.
Mr. BELIN. How many channels did you have on your radio?
Mr. TURNER. Two.
Mr. BELIN. Which channel were you on?
Mr. TURNER. Channel 2.
Mr. BELIN. Was the entire motorcade on channel 2?
Mr. TURNER. The entire motorcade was on channel 2, and I believe there was a dispatcher at the central station on channel 2, that relayed some of the changes, and some of the messages were car to car, back and forth.
Mr. BELIN. Other police business would be on channel 1, at the time, or also on channel 2?
Mr. TURNER. Other police business was on channel 1.
Mr. BELIN. All right, you went through the city ahead of the actual motorcade, is that correct?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you keep track of where the motorcade was?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio.
Mr. BELIN. By radio did you keep track of how fast the motorcade was going?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; by radio.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any radio conversation as to how fast the motorcade was going at the time it got to Main and Houston?
Mr. TURNER. I don't recall.
Mr. BELIN. Who did you keep your primary radio contact with?
Mr. TURNER. Chief Curry.
Mr. BELIN. Now where were you when you first heard any signs of anything out of the ordinary?
Mr. TURNER. We were on Stemmons Freeway. I don't recall approximately, at the Oak Lawn exit, or somewhere right in that vicinity.
Mr. BELIN. What did you hear on the police radio?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I heard some conversation, either sounded like Curry's voice or Sheriff Decker's voice, who was riding in the car with him. I believe it said, sounded like Sheriff Decker said notify all men to get over there and cover off the area around this building there until some investigators could get there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you return to the Texas School Book Depository Building?

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Mr. TURNER. Well, yes; but I don't believe he mentioned that building. I believe he just mentioned the overpass over the Elm Street. He said cover off that area around the overpass, I believe.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the President's car come by your car?
Mr. TURNER. Out on the expressway, I did; yes.
Mr. BELIN. Where was the President's car headed?
Mr. TURNER. Parkland Hospital.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TURNER. We fell in behind it in our car.
Mr. BELIN. You went over to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got there?
Mr. TURNER. We went up by the exit there and helped sort of control the crowd, and I never did go in. They unloaded the President's car?
Mr. BELIN. Did you watch them unload the President's car?
Mr. TURNER. Off and on, I mean, I was more or less mingling in the crowd, trying to restrain the crowd where they could have room to work.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded Governor Connally?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see how they unloaded the President?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. We got back in Chief Lumpkin's car along with him, and we come back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr. BELIN. When did you get back there, approximately?
Mr. TURNER. In relation to time, I don't know. But it was just about a short while. I would say, I don't know, 10 or 15 minutes after it happened. We just started out there in a matter of minutes, and we drove code 3, with the sirens on, and we came back down here.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. Chief Lumpkin told me to search out a caboose to a train that was parked at the rear of the building. I went in and searched this boxcar out, and come out of there, and by that time they were already in the building, I supposed. I went in the building and that is when I ran across this Mr. Campbell and Truly.
Mr. BELIN. Now let me ask you this. Did you find anything in the boxcar?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see any railroad employee over there?
Mr. TURNER. At the boxcar?
Mr. BELIN. Or in this area, did you talk to anybody?
Mr. TURNER. No sir; this was a caboose of a boxcar, that is what it was, sitting there.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk to anyone over there that indicated where they heard the shots came from?
Mr. TURNER. Talked to these people from the School Book Depository.
Mr. BELIN. Prior to the time you got to the School Book Depository, did you talk to anyone?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, you say you saw Mr. Campbell and Mr. Truly and who else?
Mr. TURNER. Mr. Molina.
Mr. BELIN. They all worked there?
Mr. TURNER. Yes; they said they did.
Mr. BELIN. Where did you talk to them?
Mr. TURNER. Down on the first floor of this building, back sort of a warehouse like.
Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they heard the shots come from?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr. BELIN. What did they say?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I believe they said they thought they all came from west of the building at that time.

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Mr. BELIN. Did they say where they were when they heard the shots, when the shots came?
Mr. TURNER. Well, according to my notes, Mr. Truly stated that he was at the front of the store watching the parade in the front of the building, and Mr. Campbell had walked across the street, and this Joe Molina, I don't have on here where he was. He just said he worked in the warehouse.
Mr. BELIN. That is all your notes show on him?
Mr. TURNER. Said they all thought the sound came from west of their building.
Mr. BELIN. Can I take a look at that book of yours? It might cut down the questioning?
Mr. TURNER. Yes; this is more or less some notes.
Mr. BELIN. You are handing me kind of a spiral notebook that you have. I notice here, well, let me ask you this. Then what did you do after that?
Mr. TURNER. About that time there was a deputy sheriff, Mr. Sweatt, come over and told me they sent a witness over to their office, which was located diagonally across the street, and said this witness might be able to shed light on the description of a suspect, so I went to the sheriff's office and I stayed there for quite some spell talking to witnesses.
Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to?
Mr. TURNER. Several of them. I would have to look up their names.
Mr. BELIN. Well, looking at your index in your little notebook, I see you have something about an Arnold Rowland there?
Mr. TURNER. Yes; I talked to Rowland.
Mr. BELIN. What do your notes say you talked to Rowland about? What did Rowland say, according to your notes?
Mr. TURNER. Said he was standing. I don't know whether he was with his wife or his girl friend, I don't know what connection, they were standing on Houston between Main and Elm, approximately 15 minutes before the President arrived. They saw a man standing back in the background of an open window two floors from the top.
Mr. BELIN. Two floors from the top?
Mr. TURNER. That is what he said. The man appeared to have a rifle with scope on it in his hand and he notice another thing that he said about this, he said the man was standing on the west side of the building.
Mr. BELIN. The west side of the south side of the building?
Mr. TURNER Yes.
Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?
Mr. TURNER. He thought it was a security man, is the reason that he made no issue of it. I am unable to give a description except a white man, and that he heard three shots.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say how much of the man he saw, or not; do you remember?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't remember any further. There was a court reporter there and so forth, and they took an affidavit of him at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say anything about seeing any other man in the window in any other windows there?
Mr. TURNER. Not that I recall.
Mr. BELIN. All right, did you interview any Ronald Fischer or a Robert Edwards?
Mr. TURNER. I got a Ronald Fischer and Bob Edwards.
Mr. BELIN. What do you have about them?
Mr. TURNER. They said they saw a white man in his twenties standing on the fifth floor of the Book Building in the east window. Had on an open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. And said the hair was longer than a crewcut.
Mr. BELIN. What else did they say?
Mr. TURNER. That is all the notes I have. Like I said, there was an affidavit taken from them at the time, too.
Mr. BELIN. Now this is with regards to the--do you have this under Fischer or under Edwards, or both?
Mr. TURNER. Under both. They were more or less together at the time.
Mr. BELIN. Did they think they could identify the man?

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Mr. TURNER. Thought they said they could identify him.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever take pictures out for either one of them?
Mr. TURNER. Yes; I have.
Mr. BELIN. Which one?
Mr. TURNER. The one that lives in Mesquite, whichever one that is.
Mr. BELIN. That is Ronald Fischer?
Mr. TURNER. Whatever that is.
Mr. BELIN. What did Fischer say about the pictures?
Mr. TURNER. He said it could be the man he saw, but he couldn't remember positive.
Mr. BELIN. Did he give you any more identification of the man?
Mr. TURNER. None other than that.
Mr. BELIN. You were at the sheriff's office then and took part in the taking of various affidavits there?
Mr. TURNER. I questioned witnesses. I didn't take any of the affidavits, but they did send court reporters and secretaries up and affidavits was taken from them.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember, you yourself, questioning a Howard Leslie Brennan or anyone questioning a Brennan?
Mr. TURNER. Brennan, let me check. I've got a Charles F. Brehan [spelling] B-r-e-h-a-n, that I talked to.
Mr. BELIN. No; that is not the one.
Mr. TURNER. Probably I didn't. That was probably the name I was thinking of when you said Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. All right, while you were there, did you learn that an officer had been shot?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I stayed down there for quite some time talking to these witnesses, and then I went back over to the School Book Depository Building to check and see if my partner was there.
Mr. Senkel hadn't seen him in quite a while and didn't locate him. There was several officers over there, Special Service, still had the building secured, and you want this mentioned that coat business in there?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. TURNER. The coat has no bearing on the case.
Mr. BELIN. You mean in your statement I have with reference to a coat being found on Industrial Street?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; as far as I know, that still has no bearing in the case, but it was placed in the property room.
Mr. BELIN. You just found a coat somewhere?
Mr. TURNER. Well, a Mr. Kaminski from the police department handed me a coat when I went back over to the building, with a note of who had turned it into him, where it was found, and he had no idea whether it had any bearing on the case or not.
Mr. BELIN. Have you investigated?
Mr. TURNER. As far as I know, the coat does not have any bearing on the case.
Mr. BELIN. All right, go ahead.
Mr. TURNER. After I left there, I went back to the sheriff's office and I talked to the one lieutenant in our office then and found out that Mr. Senkel had gone back to our office, so he in turn, he told me I might as well come on up there, looked like things, about all I could down there.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. I went to the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do there?
Mr. TURNER. Well, when I walked in there, one of the lieutenants was talking about finding a justice of the peace to obtain a search warrant, and I told him that I just left the sheriff's office and one of the J.P.'s was down there when I left, David Johnston, and so he said, "Well, see if you can get ahold of him and get a warrant for this address on North Beckley and carry the warrant over there."
Mr. BELIN. Would that have been 1026 North Beckley?

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Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I am sure it is. I have to look, in the paper here a minute; 1026 North Beckley.
Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do there?
Mr. TURNER. Well, Detective Moore was in the office. He and I got a car and drove down by the, back down to the sheriff's office, and when we got there, Judge Johnston and one of the assistant district attorneys, Bill Alexander, was standing on the front steps waiting for us, because someone got ahold of him by phone and told them I was on the way.
Mr. BELIN. Was that Detective H.M. Moore?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. We went on over, the four of us--me, Detective Moore, Judge Johnston, and Mr. Alexander--went over to 1026 North Beckley where this Lee Oswald had a room in it.
Mr. BELIN. You went over there on November 22?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Now according to one record that I have of a search warrant, it is dated November 23. Do you have any particular knowledge whether the search warrant was actually dated November 22 or November 23?
Mr. TURNER. I don't remember the date on it, but I know he had the warrant made out, and handed it to me when I got in the car, but I don't remember the date on the warrant.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. We looked through this room and picked up everything in it that didn't belong with the house, you know.
Mr. BELIN. Where was W.E. Potts and Bell Senkel?
Mr. TURNER. They were along with Lieutenant Cunningham and the three were there when we got there.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. We picked up all the articles and brought them to the homicide and robbery office of the city hall.
Mr. BELIN. You made out an inventory of them there?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what has been marked "Moore Deposition Exhibit 1," and ask you to state whether this appears to be a copy of an inventory that you made?
Mr. TURNER. I think all of this----
Mr. BELIN. Just a second----
Mr. TURNER. We got stuff out of two or three different places. Here is the typed-up list of the copies that I made.
Mr. BELIN. You made a typed-up list of things that you picked up at 1026 North Beckley?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Are these the things that you picked up?
Mr. TURNER. That is the same that was picked up there.
Mr. BELIN. Was this a complete list, or might there have been other things?
Mr. TURNER. There is some articles of clothing that is not listed. It is just listed as miscellaneous clothing and so forth.
Mr. BELIN. This is your original?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; that is a carbon.
Mr. BELIN. This is a carbon? Who typed the carbon?
Mr. TURNER. Well, the carbon was made at the time the original was made by one of the secretaries in the--our office.
Mr. BELIN. Who dictated it?
Mr. TURNER. Well, that is a different thing. She took it out of this notebook, and Mr. Moore wrote part of it in the notebook and I wrote part.
Mr. BELIN. In other words, these are copies [of] notebooks that you had?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Well, let's mark this as an exhibit. Let's mark this as "Turner Deposition Exhibit 1," which I will offer to introduce in evidence.
Do you need this back?
Mr. TURNER. No; I am sure we have other copies. That is a copy I had in

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my locker. I mean, that is probably the same. They might have made a more detailed description of idols at the property room.
Mr. BELIN. All right, what did you do after you left the Beckley residence?
Did you talk to the landlady there at all? Or not?
Mr. TURNER. Talked to her, but I can't recall her name. There was a Mrs. Johnson and Mr. Johnson and Earlene Roberts. There were two or three people there.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything that anyone said at that time?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. Mr. Potts and Senkel and Cunningham were waiting for us to bring the warrant, so they had been talking to them before we did.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember finding a leather gun holster?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; there was a holster found.
Mr. BELIN. Now, what did you do after that?
Mr. TURNER. After we brought this stuff to the office?
Mr. BELIN. Yes.
Mr. TURNER. Well, by that Tim the phones and everything else were going wild. I answered phones around there for quite a while. I believe I did take an affidavit from a sister of the boy that worked with Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository, the boy that he rode to work with that morning.
Mr. BELIN. What do you do when you take an affidavit, by the way? How do you go about doing it?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I just take the--let them tell the story, and write it down in longhand, and get the secretary to type it up, and let them sign it in front of a notary.
Mr. BELIN. Do you have an affidavit in front of you or your notes from this Linnie Mae Randle, this sister of the boy that drove him to work, or not?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you throw those out once the affidavit is typed up?
Mr. TURNER. I don't believe they ever gave it back to us. I guess the secretary, she might have filed it somewhere.
Mr. BELIN. All right, what happened? Anything else on that day that you think is important insofar as the assassination is concerned?
Mr. TURNER. I don't think of anything. Let me look through these notes here and see about where we are. As far as that day goes, that is about it.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Do you remember when you were out at 1026 North Beckley finding a passport at all? Does that ring a bell with you?
Mr. TURNER. I think there was a passport, maybe one or two.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether or not there was any kind of vaccination card, one of those yellow health organization vaccination cards which bears the name of Lee Oswald? Do you remember whether there was any of those there or not?
Mr. TURNER. I don't recall that.
Mr. BELIN. You don't remember whether there was or or was not?
Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether there was or was not; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What about the next day, Saturday, November 23?
Mr. TURNER. Just nothing of importance that I did that day, that I know of, exempt I came to work, like I said.
They had to put in four or five extra phones up there, and it kept lots of us busy answering the phone.
Mr. BELIN. At that time did you ever get involved in any interrogation sessions with Oswald?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I never was.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever get involved in any showups of Oswald?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir. I think I might have got right in on the tail end of one down there, but I don't recall the details. I think I walked in just as they were winding up on him one night.
Mr. BELIN. Did you receive any phone calls about anyone that tried to identify the rifle as to where it might have been purchased from?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. On one of the phone calls, but I don't know

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the man's name that called, but he did state that he had seen a picture. This was probably Saturday, the next day. He stated that he had seen this picture somewhere of this rifle that was found, and he stated this about this Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago had an exact replica in a magazine that he had seen, and I passed that along to Captain Fritz, and he already had the information.
Mr. BELIN. Anything--any other information come in on Saturday of any importance?
Mr. TURNER. Not that I can recall.
Mr. BELIN. All right; were you in the police station Sunday morning, November 24?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. When did you come to the police station?
Mr. TURNER. I came in from church, approximately, shortly after 12, and my mother-in-law or somebody told me they had seen the incident happen, or had then heard the incident, or told me about the incident, so I called the office and they said come on to work, so I probably got to work about 1 o'clock or so.
Mr. BELIN. Then you stayed down there on Sunday?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; until in the night.
Mr. BELIN. Anyone call in on Sunday about anything of importance with regard to the assassination?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir. I mean, I don't know whether it was in regard to the assassination. They called in about there was supposed to be a man in Irving that sighted in a rifle out there.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know who it was that called in?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; it was Mr. Ray Johns, channel 8 news.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say?
Mr. TURNER. He stated he had received an anonymous call stating Oswald had the rifle sighted in on Thursday, November 21, at a gunshop at 111 or 212 Irving Boulevard.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?
Mr. TURNER. Well, I checked the crisscross and phone book and found there was an Irving Specs Shop at 221 East Irving Boulevard.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. TURNER. Found a man that owned it, Woody Greener, and had a man, Dial Ryder that worked for him.
Mr. BELIN. Did you talk with either or both of them?
Mr. TURNER. Yes I did. I don't remember that particular time, but I have talked with both of them.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember if it was on that day or a subsequent day?
Mr. TURNER. I don't remember whether it was that day or the next day, I sure don't.
Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to? Did you talk to Greener?
Mr. TURNER. I talked to Mr. Greener first.
Mr. BELIN. Did you later talk to Ryder or not?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I have talked to Ryder.
Mr. BELIN. What did Greener say?
Mr. TURNER. Well, they said that they had all seen pictures of Oswald in the paper and neither of them could recall doing anything--any work for the man in the shop.
Mr. BELIN. What else did he say, if anything?
Mr. TURNER. He stated he would check his files and records for names, and would call back if he found anything and he was giving us a reason there, from looking at the phone in the picture, why they hadn't worked on it.
Mr. BELIN. What reason did he give you?
Mr. TURNER. Well, in the photos it showed that the screws that hold the clamp that holds the scope on the rifle looked like they were on top of the gun, and he thinks he says that neither of them have ever seen a gun where the scope was mounted with the screws on top.
Mr. BELIN. Were they ever talked to again about the thing?
Mr. TURNER. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. About when was that?

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Mr. TURNER. About November 28.
Mr. BELIN. Who did you talk to?
Mr. TURNER. Mr. Greener.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say?
Mr. TURNER. He stated that they found a work ticket in the rear of the shop. Said this ticket had no date on it, but the best they could figure out, his---this work probably came in around November the 4th or November the 8th of 1963.
Mr. BELIN. Well, what else did he say about the work ticket that would call attention to it?
Mr. TURNER. He said the ticket had the name Oswald on it, written on it, and the word "drill and tap, $4.50, and bore sighting, $1.50."
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he could remember anything about this, about the man they did the work for?
Mr. TURNER. He stated that he could not; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever talk to Ryder about it, or not?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BELIN. What did Ryder say?
Mr. TURNER. He couldn't remember either, anything about the man.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever show them the gun itself?
Mr. TURNER. I didn't; no, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know whether or not the gun was ever shown to these men?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say who wrote the ticket?
Mr. TURNER. They said that it was Ryder's writing, I believe.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this. Did you ever pick up the work ticket on--or try to pick up the work ticket?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I tried to. Went by Mr. Greener's house. He said that he had orders from a Mr. Horton of the FBI to hold this ticket and not let it get away from him.
Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this?
Mr. TURNER. Sir?
Mr. BELIN. When did you contact Greener about this, or don't you remember?
Mr. TURNER. I don't know.
Mr. BELIN. Do you know what the phrase, "Drill and tap." means or did you discuss this with Mr. Greener?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did. He explained it to me.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say about it?
Mr. TURNER. He said the phrase, "Drill and tap," as used by a gunsmith means to drill a hole, using a tap to put threads in the hole to attach a scope mount. Said that he charged a $1.50 a hole to bore these holes. Said this would mean that the mount on this scope would have three screws in it.
Mr. BELIN. Let's see, that would be $4.50. Well, as I understand it, he said that---do you know how many screws the rifle had on the top of it that was found in the School Book Depository Building?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir; I don't. I never examined it.
Mr. BELIN. But this would indicate three screws on top?
Mr. TURNER. According to his charges of a $1.50 a hole.
Mr. BELIN. How many on top? I mean, three screws based on his $1.50 a screw?
Mr. TURNER. A hole.
Mr. BELIN. What about the bore sight? What does that mean?
Mr. TURNER. The phrase boresight, his description means to attach to a spud to the barrel of the rifle, and then using a sight-alining tool, they attach this spud to this tool and aline the crosshairs, and that is to sight a rifle in.
Mr. BELIN. Did he indicate to you whether or not he knew of any particular rifle that had three screws on the scope mount?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he named two. He said that most mounting for scopes was four screws, but he said there are two or three, the Springfield 03AM and the British 303. He said those two use three screws in their mount.
Mr. BELIN. Now do you have anywhere in your notes as to whether or not

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you put down as to how many screws in a mount this rifle found in the School Book Depository Building had?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right; did he say whether or not he sold any ammunition for a 6.5 caliber Italian rifle?
Mr. TURNER. He stated he does not sell ammunition for those caliber rifles, 6.5.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he would try and do any further checking to see if he could determine when the order was picked up?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; he said he would check his sales tickets and see if he could find perhaps by the $6 charge approximately what date it might have been picked up.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever go back and talk with him later to see whether or not he did this?
Mr. TURNER. We did, but he wasn't, as far as I can remember, he wasn't able to do any good. He might have had a lot of charges in that amount or nature or something.,
Mr. BELIN. Any other conversations with him that you recall right now?
Mr. TURNER. None that I can recall.
Mr. BELIN. What about the other man, Mr. Ryder? Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. BELIN. What did he say and what did you say?
Mr. TURNER. Mr. Ryder said that he wrote the work ticket up with the name Oswald on it. We showed him a picture of Oswald, and he stated that he cannot identify the man as the one who left the rifle with him.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say that he was sure that Oswald's picture was not the man, or did he just say he could not give positive identification one way or the other, if you remember?
Mr. TURNER. I don't recall the exact words, but I know he didn't identify him.
Mr. BELIN. What else did he say?
Mr. TURNER. Well, he said that, I believe, that this ticket was written up with a pencil., He said he usually writes with a pen, and he could recall some days in the past month when he had forgotten his pen or something, and he was going to check around and see if he could figure out what day the rifle might have been left there.
Mr. BELIN. Did he ever do this at all, or not?
Mr. TURNER. I don't recall whether he did or not.
Mr. BELIN. You don't have another record of your going back and talking to him, do you?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You don't know if the FBI did?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen any pictures of the rifle?
Mr. TURNER. Said he had seen pictures of it, yes, sir; probably in the paper.
Mr. BELIN. Did he say whether or not those pictures enabled him to determine that he had or had not worked on it?
Mr. TURNER. He said from the pictures he had seen of it, he did not think that he was working on it.
Mr. BELIN. Why not?
Mr. TURNER. He thinks from the photos that the scope mounting had only two screws in it, and he states that they charged for three on this ticket, and said that he also thinks that he would remember a cheap scope like was attached to this rifle, and would have tried to sell the man another one, and would remember that.
Mr. BELIN. Anything else about him?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. All right, now, I believe you said you took a picture of Oswald out to this Ronald Fischer that lived in Mesquite, Tex.?
Mr. TURNER. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember anything else that Fischer might have said about this?

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Mr. TURNER. No, sir; only that he said the photos of Oswald looked like the man he saw at the window that shot, and he stated he saw this man a minute or less before the motorcade arrived, and could not say definitely this was the man. He said it looked like him.
Mr. BELIN. Detective Turner, is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears upon the assassination of the President of the investigation you made that we haven't discussed here?
Mr. TURNER. No, sir.
Mr. BELIN. You have been sitting here while I put in a call to Washington to determine whether or not the rifle had two or three holes for screws for the mounting of the scope, and just so that your curiosity will be relieved, I will say that I have a report from Washington that there are only two holes for mounting the scope on this particular rifle. Well, if you have nothing further, we want to thank you very much for all the cooperation in coming down here.
One other thing on the record. You have the opportunity to read this and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can just waive the signature and have the court reporter ship it. Do you have any preference or not?
Mr. TURNER. What have they been doing?
Mr. BELIN. Well, most of the officers have been saying they would as soon read it and sign it, but you can do it either way.
Mr. TURNER. I suppose it is all right to just let it go.
Mr. BELIN. You want to waive it?
Mr. TURNER. Well.