TESTIMONY OF DANIEL GUTIERREZ LUJAN

The testimony of Daniel Gutierrez Lujan was taken at 10:10 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. BALL. Mr. Lujan, will you stand up and be sworn, please.
Hold up your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give to this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were asked to come in here and testify, were you not, in this matter? You were asked to come here?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were you not?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And this Commission has been appointed to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And we're informed that you--that there is certain information that might be of some value to the Commission in coming to their conclusion, and we have asked you to come in here and testify.
Are you willing to testify to whatever you know?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. This is Mr. Ely and my name is Ball. We are both staff officers with the Commission. Will you please state your name?
Mr. LUJAN. Daniel Gutierrez Lujan.
Mr. BALL. Where do you live?
Mr. LUJAN. I live 184 Lear.
Mr. BALL. Dallas?
Mr. LUJAN. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. BALL. What is your occupation?
Mr. LUJAN. I work in a meat company, butcher and general help.
Mr. BALL. I see. Where were you born?
Mr. LUJAN. Tyler, Tex.
Mr. BALL. Did you go to school there?
Mr. LUJAN. No; I went to school in San Antonio and here in Dallas.
Mr. BALL. In Dallas?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How far did you go through school?
Mr. LUJAN. Went to about seventh grade.
Mr. BALL. Then did you go to work?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go to work.
Mr. LUJAN. Palmer & Ray.
Mr. BALL. Red?
Mr. LUJAN. Ray & Palmer.
Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?
Mr. LUJAN. I worked there about 2 1/2 years.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go then?
Mr. LUJAN. Direct Delivery Service.

243

Mr. BALL. Direct to where?
Mr. LUJAN. Delivery Service.
Mr. BALL. Delivery Service?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long did you work there?
Mr. LUJAN. I worked about 3 years.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. LUJAN. Then had to go to Huntsville. I went to Huntsville.
Mr. BALL. I didn't hear that.
Mr. LUJAN. I went to Huntsville Penitentiary.
Mr. BALL. You sent to Huntsville Prison?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. For what charge?
Mr. LUJAN. Possession of narcotics.
Mr. BALL. How long were you there?
Mr. LUJAN. Three years.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. LUJAN. I gout out and started working at Schepps. Schepps Wholesale Groceries.
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go.
Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.
Mr. BALL. From Schepps? You're still there?
Mr. LUJAN. No; T. & W. Meat Co.
Mr. BALL. What?
Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.
Mr. BALL. How long did you work for Schepps?
Mr. LUJAN. Three and a half years?
Mr. BALL. Then where did you go?
Mr. LUJAN. T. & W.
Mr. BALL. I see. November 22, 1963, you were in jail, weren't you?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What was the charge?
Mr. LUJAN. Investigation.
Mr. BALL. Of what?
Mr. LUJAN. Investigation of narcotics.
Mr. BALL. Of narcotics?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And when were you arrested?
Mr. LUJAN. I was arrested the day before that.
Mr. BALL. That is, November 22--21?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes; day before the assassination.
Mr. BALL. Before the assassination?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay in jail?
Mr. LUJAN. Until Sunday.
Mr. BALL. Then did they release you?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You were not charged with anything?
Mr. LUJAN. No.
Mr. BALL. Now, are they--on Friday, November 22, 1963, did you take part in a showup?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What time of day was it?
Mr. LUJAN. It was--I don't recall, about 1 o'clock, probably in the afternoon.
Mr. BALL. Was it in the afternoon?
Mr. LUJAN. I don't remember.
Mr. BALL. Or What?
Mr. LUJAN. That was a Saturday.
Mr. BALL. Saturday, yes. You didn't take part in any showups on Friday?
Mr. LUJAN. No; just on showup and Saturday----
Mr. BALL. So, Saturday you took part in one showup?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.

244

Mr. BALL. Who asked you to do that?
Mr. LUJAN. An officer went in there and told me to stand up and I stand up and he looked at me and said, "Come out."
So, I came out, and he went and got three more.
Mr. BALL. Got three more?
Mr. LUJAN. Got three more fellows.
Mr. BALL. Three more fellows from jail?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you know them?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Had you ever seen them before?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Have you ever seen them since?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did they look like?
Mr. LUJAN. About my size, darker.
Mr. BALL. What is your size? What is your weight?
Mr. LUJAN. Weight about 170.
Mr. BALL. What is your height?
Mr. LUJAN. About 5'8".
Mr. BALL. And your hair is dark?
Mr. LUJAN. Black.
Mr. BALL. It is black hair. And your eyes?
Mr. LUJAN. Brown.
Mr. BALL. And brown, and, your complexion?
Mr. LUJAN. Olive?
Mr. BALL. Are you of Mexican descent?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You are very fair in color for a Mexican.
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. You have fair skin, haven't you?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. What did the other man look like in the showup with you?
Mr. LUJAN. Oh, about my coloring, and about----
Mr. BALL. Same coloring?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Or anywhere near the coloring of Oswald?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You saw Oswald, didn't you?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Where did you stand in the showup?
Mr. LUJAN. I was standing next to him, right next to him.
Mr. BALL. Right next to him?
Mr. LUJAN Were you handcuffed to him?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did you hear him say anything?
Mr. LUJAN. He said he wanted a T-shirt. He wanted a T-shirt.
Mr. BALL. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. BALL. On the record. Let me see, did I ask you where you were standing in the lineup?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were what would be----
Mr. LUJAN. Right next to him.
Mr. BALL. Which was the right, to your right?
Mr. LUJAN. No; he was standing right here, handcuffed----
Mr. BALL. To the right?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You were handcuffed to Oswald?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. He was complaining, was he?

245

Mr. LUJAN. About having a T-shirt, and wanted a jacket or something.
Mr. BALL. How were you dressed?
Mr. LUJAN. I had a jacket and a shirt.
Mr. BALL. What color shirt?
Mr. LUJAN. I don't--kind of blue shirt and brown jacket.
Mr. BALL. Brown jacket?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Any tie on?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did the detective ask you name?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And did you tell him your name?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did he ask your occupation?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. LUJAN. Working for S. & F. Meat Co.
Mr. BALL. Ask you anything else?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; that's all. Phone number.
Mr. BALL. Phone number and your address?
Mr. LUJAN. Address, phone number.
Mr. BALL. Did he ask the other men any showup questions?
Mr. LUJAN. No; just asked my name and address and phone number is all.
Mr. BALL. That's all? Did he ask that of Oswald?
Mr. LUJAN. No, he didn't ask Oswald nothing.
Mr. BALL. Oswald was doing some talking?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Was he shouting loud?
Mr. LUJAN. He was shouting. He--he was shouting, said all of us had a shirt on and he had a T-shirt on. He wanted a shirt or something.
Mr. BALL. Did the detective say anything to you--or him?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; just took us out. They didn't have the showup. Left about a minute.
Mr. BALL. Then you left?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes; took us out back to the cell.
Mr. BALL. What do you mean they didn't have a showup? They did have you in there and he did ask you questions?
Mr. LUJAN. He didn't ask questions. He started--he wanted a shirt, and that's all.
Mr. BALL. They asked you questions, didn't they?
Mr. LUJAN. No; they didn't ask nobody questions.
Mr. BALL. Oh, he asked you your name and address and asked the others their name and address?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did they ask Oswald his name and address?
Mr. LUJAN. Yes--I mean no, sir.
Mr. BALL. I think that is all, Mr. Lujan. You can leave.
Mr. LUJAN. All right.
Mr. BALL. Do you have a picture of yourself?
Mr. LUJAN. No, sir; not with me.
Mr. BALL. We have your address where you are working?
Mr. LUJAN. 2405 South Ervay.