TESTIMONY OF LEONARD EDWIN HUTCHISON
The testimony of Leonard Edwin Hutchison was taken at 9 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. JENNER. Will you rise and be sworn, please?
In the testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I do.
Mr. JENNER. And you are Leonard Edwin Hutchinson?
Mr. HUTCHISON. It's Hutchison (spelling) H-u-t-c-h-i-s-o-n, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. i-s-o-n?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you live at Scandia Apartments?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Apartment No. 505, at 601 West Sixth Street, Irving, Tex.?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Mr. Hutchison, the Presidential Assassination Commission appointed pursuant to Presidential Executive Order No. 11130, of November 29, 1963, and Senate and House of Representatives Joint Resolution No. 137, of the 88th Congress, is investigating the assassination of President John F. Kennedy here in Dallas, Tex, on the 22d of November 1963, and all of the circumstances surrounding it.
Have you received a letter from J. Lee Rankin, the general counsel for the Commission?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. With which was enclosed a copy of the joint resolution and of the Executive order?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I read them several times.
Mr. JENNER. And we are advised, from information we have, that you may have some information with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald and his visiting in Irving, Tex., and possibly some information respecting the Paines. And we would like to inquire of you of those circumstances.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What is your business, occupation or profession?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm a retail grocery owner, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And do you operate that business?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I operate the business.
Mr. JENNER. Where is your retail grocery store?
Mr. HUTCHISON. On the corner of Shady Grove and Storey Road.
Mr. JENNER. In what town?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Irving, Tex.
Mr. JENNER. That's a suburb of Dallas?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. And would you just tell me, in general, the nature of your market or store?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I have a complete supermarket, sir--retail grocery, meat, fresh fish, produce and all necessary food items.
Mr. JENNER. Is the Paine family or Mrs. Paine a customer of your market?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Not a regular customer--just a drop in.
Mr. JENNER. She does, from time to time, come by the store and purchase food stuffs?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with Mrs. Paine--that is, would you recognize you saw her?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I would recognize her if I saw her.
Mr. JENNER. And you have had occasion to speak with her?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; just to speak. I try to salute everyone that comes in.
Mr. JENNER. Naturally.
Mr. HUTCHISON. That's just the business.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know where her home is located in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you locate your market with respect to her home?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; you would turn east a block and a half--turn right, and I'm 8 blocks due south.
Mr. JENNER. You turn east a block and a half--and what cross street is that?
Mr. HUTCHISON. That is Storey, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you would go down Storey south----
Mr. HUTCHISON. To Shady Grove.
Mr. JENNER. To Shady Grove?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Approximately how many blocks?
Mr. HUTCHISON. It's 8 blocks from Fifth to Shady Grove.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Do you have a large parking lot area?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I would consider it fairly large; yes.
Mr. JENNER. Mrs. Paine has testified with respect to attempting to teach Lee Oswald to drive an automobile, and that she went to a supermarket area, which she said was approximately 8 blocks from her home---it took her about 4 minutes, 4 1/2 minutes or 5 minutes to drive there 4 minutes, I guess.
Mr. HUTCHISON. I don't believe she could teach on my driveway because my driveway is three-way parking, and I don't have a lot to where she could turn, feasibly, around.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
This was, she said, on Sunday afternoons when there were no vehicles on the lot.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I'm open on Sunday so she----
Mr. JENNER. Oh, you are?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I'm open on Sunday. So she couldn't--my parking lot is not filled every Sunday, but I don't believe she would have practiced on my parking lot. It would have been noticed--I would say that. Now, I work until around 3 o'clock on every Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. Every Sunday?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; so it would have had to have been after then and, feasibly, I don't believe she could teach anyone to drive in my parking lot.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Were you aware that sometime in the fall of 1963, that a lady was residing with Mrs. Paine who was a Russian emigre?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were you aware in the fall of 1963, that the man we now know as Lee Harvey Oswald was visiting in the Paine home on weekends?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I couldn't--I couldn't say that he was visiting there. All I can say, Mr. Jenner, is that he came into the store and bought items like what I remember so vividly is that it was milk and cinnamon rolls early in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. Milk and cinnamon rolls?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; in the morning--early. When you're not busy in
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the morning, you naturally acquaint yourself with people more than when you are real busy. I mean, when you are there and there's, say, three or four in the store and you're checking out, you notice people, you observe them a lot more than you do if you're real crowded.
Mr. JENNER. So, this being relatively early in the morning, it was something that arrested your attention?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Was he accompanied by anyone?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Never; never.
Mr. JENNER. How often did this take place?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say I saw the boy approximately four or five times at the maximum that I can remember--four or five times. And it would be a day or two or three between. It was always in the morning.
Mr. JENNER. Always?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I open at 7 o'clock in the morning, and I would say it was between 7:20 and 7:45 because it was--it just got to be a routine.
Mr. JENNER. Does your memory serve you sufficiently as to whether these purchases or visits included midweek days? That is, let's take Monday through Thursday. Would there be any on those days?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't say. I couldn't pinpoint the day. I know that--that it was between--there would be a day or two between, or maybe three between.
Mr. JENNER. Would your memory serve you as to whether--let's take one day--there was any degree of regularity of this person's visits to your market on Monday?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No; no--I couldn't pinpoint Monday. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You are open on Sunday, you say. Do you recall this gentleman you have in mind ever having visited and made purchases on Sunday morning?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No; no, sir. We do very, very little business up until 9 o'clock. They'd just be occasionally a drop-in for a, say, a package of cigarettes or something like that.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Sunday morning is very quiet, sir. I think I'd have recognized him on Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. All right. We can eliminate Sunday?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And what about Saturday?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm not there very often on Saturday morning because I work Saturday nights. So, I couldn't--I couldn't pinpoint Saturday morning.
Mr. JENNER. And the odds are, then--let's see, we've eliminated Sunday morning--and the likelihood is that you did not see him on Saturday?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I see. So, it would be----
Mr. HUTCHISON. During the week.
Mr. JENNER. Monday through Friday?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. When did these visits commence, if you recall?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say--uh--I came back from out of the country trip in September; so it would have had to have started late September.
Mr. JENNER. And what is your recollection as to their persistence up to and including November 22, 1963?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, it would have been just an occasional drop-in.
Mr. JENNER. During that period?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; during that period. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see this man at any time subsequent to November 22, 1963?
Mr. HUTCHISON. After?
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh.
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. No, sir. I sure didn't.
Mr. JENNER. I think I asked you whether he was accompanied by anyone at anytime and you said, "No."
Mr. HUTCHISON. Only one time.
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Mr. JENNER. One time?
Mr. HUTCHISON. One time. Yes. There was a Wednesday evening, he and his wife and an elderly lady were shopping in midcounters and I was stocking around a corner and I heard this blurt--uh--statement in foreign tongue. And, naturally, that would arouse your curiosity to hear somebody speaking--now, I know Spanish, and I recognize German and I recognize French--and it wasn't any of those. So, I immediately came around the counter and he was taking something away from his--the woman he was with and putting it back on the shelf and talking to her in this language.
Mr. JENNER. What was your impression as to what he was attempting to convey to her?
Mr. HUTCHISON. That he didn't want her to have it--that he took it away from her. He still had it--he still had it in her hand--I mean, she had it in her hand and he took it away from her and put it back on the shelf.
Mr. JENNER. Now, this was in the afternoon?
Mr. HUTCHISON. That was late in the evening, sir, between--between, I would say, between 6:45 and 7:30. Because I close at 8:30 and I recognize that it was earlier. They were buying then what you would say a complete bill of groceries. They had several items in the basket.
Mr. JENNER. I see. You have the---I don't do much supermarket shopping--but it's a cart with wheels?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; a cart with wheels.
Mr. JENNER. Self-service?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Self-service. Yes,. sir. All my store is self-service, meat included; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
You said, "This man and his wife." What led you to say that this lady or woman was his wife?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, uh---later, when her picture came on television, I--uh--I recognized her.
Mr. JENNER. Now, when you use the pronoun "her," you're now referring to whom?
Mr. HUTCHISON. To his wife.
Mr. JENNER. Marina Oswald?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. Marina Oswald. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Would you describe, as best you can, your present recollection of what this man looked like?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes He was--uh--around 5 foot 10 or 10 1/2; he had a very, I would say--impressive look about him. It was always, to me, uh--to her--at that time it was a glare. He was glaring at her. And, of course, when anyone glares, their facial expressions tighten up and you just naturally observe someone like that. And it looked like well, you wouldn't say a fit of anger, but a disgust or something out of the ordinary.
Mr. JENNER. Irritation?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; irritation would be the word. Yes. It wasn't, "You don't need that," or--of course, I couldn't understand Russian. I heard Russian of course when I was in the service in Seattle, but I didn't recognize the language. But he was telling her and it was in irritation--and he put it back on the shelf.
Mr. JENNER. By the way, I might do this at the moment--what is your age?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm 50.
Mr. JENNER. And are you a native of the Dallas area?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I was raised right down here at Waxahachie, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your formal education was what--elementary school, high school?
Mr. HUTCHISON. High school; high school education, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then, you spent some time in the service, I gather?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I take it, you make a practice of trying to obtain a picture in your mind of all your customers?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Of every customer; yes, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. And to remember them?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I love people and I love to speak to them and I address everyone, regardless of creed, color, or anything. I always speak to them.
Mr. JENNER. Well, that's a mark of a good salesman--apart from your normal disposition.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I like people. That's the thing. I like people.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall how this man was attired on that occasion?
Mr. HUTCHISON. He was in slacks with just--uh--had a little jacket--uh--I would say just a common, ordinary jacket.
Mr. JENNER. There's my raincoat hanging there [indicating]. Was it about that weight or what was it?
Mr. HUTCHISON. A little heavier; a little heavier jacket. It was----
Mr. JENNER. Was it that type of material--twill? Or was it wool or what was it?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Twill.
Mr. JENNER. Twill?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it was twill.
Mr. JENNER. Short jacket?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Short jacket; yes, sir. Short jacket.
Mr. JENNER. Zippered?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Zipper--yes, sir. Because it was open. I remember that. He wore it several times. He had it on--uh--when he came in the morning. Always an open shirt, always had a--he never wore a tie. I observed that, naturally.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Describe the lady.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she had on, I would say, a print dress and she had on a coat. She had on a--not a heavy coat but a-----
Mr. JENNER. How tall was she?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say she was around 5 foot 2 1/2 or 3.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the color of her hair?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't. She had----
Mr. JENNER. A babushka?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No; a scarf. She had a scarf on her head. She had a white scarf.
Mr. JENNER. A white scarf?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know what I mean when I say "babushka"? It's a scarf that the ladies have over their head and they tie it under their chin.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is that the way she wore the scarf?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall the shade or color of his hair?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say that it was a kind of dark brown.
Mr. JENNER. And what about its plenitude did he have plenty of hair or----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. It was--it was combed back each time. He never wore a hat. His hair was always, I would call it--in mine and your day--roached, I guess--roached back, just peeled completely back on both sides.
Mr. JENNER. I see. And, as best you are able to fix it, when was this with respect to month and what part of the month--the fore part, latter part, middle part?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, that must have been the latter part of, I would say, the last 10 days of October.
Mr. JENNER. Uh-huh. And was it a midweek?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. It was in midweek, because I only work Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday nights. So, it would have had to have been a Wednesday night.
Mr. JENNER. Wednesday night?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Could it be that this visit was sometime between the 4th of October and the 15th of October?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I don't believe so. I believe it was later than that, sir.
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I believe, if I were to pinpoint it, I would say it was between the 15th of October and November 1.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, you said there was to your recollection, an older lady with them?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. With these people? What would you judge her age to be?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say she was somewhere between 50 and 60.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe her, please?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, sir, she had on a small li'l ole hat and--uh--a fur coat. She had on a fur coat. And--uh--she said nothing. She just walks around.
Mr. JENNER. What color was her hair?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I couldn't say, sir; because she had this hat on. It was just the language--it was the tone and the language that he was speaking that attracted me.
Mr. JENNER. And he was speaking in Russian?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes. Well, it was----
Mr. JENNER. Well, at least, in a foreign language that you couldn't understand?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; that's right.
Mr. JENNER. Did the young lady say anything?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Nothing. She said nothing.
Mr. JENNER. Now--she was a young lady?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. What would you judge her age to be?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say between 20 and 24.
Mr. JENNER. And his age?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I'd say he looked--he at that time looked to be about 21 or 22.
Mr. JENNER. He looked younger than she?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether the elderly lady did or did not wear spectacles--or glasses?
Mr. HUTCHISON. She had glasses on. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Were they a horn-rimmed type that I have and you have on?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Can you recollect--is this the only occasion on which you saw him----
Mr. HUTCHISON. With anyone?
Mr. JENNER. With anyone at all?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; the rest of the time, it was by himself.
Mr. JENNER. During the course of their visiting that day, did you hear the elderly lady say anything?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And I think you said you did not hear the young lady say anything?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; she said nothing.
Mr. JENNER. And they were purchasing what you would call a--did you say a "full stock of groceries"?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Would you describe for the record what you mean by a full stock of groceries?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, a full stock of groceries is when they buy soap, soap powder, sugar, coffee, a few canned goods, milk, bread--say, a total of $15 to $20 worth of groceries is considered a bill of groceries.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; and you recall that this occasion is what you have now described as a full stock of groceries?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; a full stock bill of groceries.
Mr. JENNER. Not only edibles, but things to apply in and about the home?
Mr. HUTCHISON. About the house the home; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And they were in your store, I take it then, for----
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Mr. HUTCHISON. Several minutes.
Mr. JENNER. Several minutes?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. How far between then, I don't know but from then on, I would say 20 minutes before they checked out.
Mr. JENNER. Did he pay for these goods?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. How? With cash?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Cash. Yes, sir. There was only one other time when he tried to cash a check.
Mr. JENNER. And I'll get to that in a minute--but on this particular occasion, it was cash.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. It was always cash. Yes, sir. He always paid cash.
Mr. JENNER. I am interested, Mr. Hutchison, in the older lady--the older of the two ladies.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Could you give me any more--draw on your imagination and see if----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she was on the heavy side; I would say weight 160 or 170 pounds, and short and dumpy.
Mr. JENNER. How tall was she with respect to the gentleman and the young lady?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she was--she was, of course, not as tall as the gentleman and maybe about the same height as the lady.
Mr. JENNER. The young lady?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; the young lady.
Mr. JENNER. What was your judgment as to the young lady's height?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say 5 feet 2 1/2 or 3.
Mr. JENNER. Relatively short?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; relatively short--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the elderly lady was approximately that height as well?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; but dumpy.
Mr. JENNER. Heavier set?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Heavier set; yes.
Mr. JENNER. What would you say was the weight of the younger lady?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say 107 to 110.
Mr. JENNER. Slightly built, then?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did I ask you this--was that a busy period of time, as you recall?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No; no, no. It wasn't too busy.
Mr. JENNER. And you were afforded plenty of opportunity, were you, to observe these people?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; yes. When I went around this aisle to hear this foreign language, I looked at them and I could see them as plain as I'm seeing you. I didn't go right down and just stare and look at them--but my aisle is only 36 feet long and they were in the middle of the aisle. So when I went around the aisle, I was within 15 feet of them.
Mr. JENNER. Now, had the gentleman you're now describing been in--was one of the occasions that he'd been in in the morning?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; before.
Mr. JENNER. Prior to this event?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And on these prior occasions when he was alone, did he ever use a language which was other than English?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Mr. Jenner, he never said a word. He never spoke. I'd always speak when he came in and always thank him when he went out. And whatever the purchase was, you addressed the amount--like it was a $1.04, a $1.16, a $1.12--he'd just put the money out or get the change and walk right out the door. He never said a word.
Mr. JENNER. He didn't say hello, goodby, how are you, nice morning, it's raining----nothing at all?
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Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; nothing. He never said a word.
Mr. JENNER. He came in, employing the self-service, picked up--let's see, cinnamon rolls--you said?
Mr. HUTCHISON. And milk.
Mr. JENNER. And milk. And you, recognizing the cost of the sales price of these items, he'd walk up to the counter, you would state x dollars or cents----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Whatever the purchase was, he would hand you the change in cash----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you would give him his change if it wasn't the exact amount that he'd handed you. And he'd walk out without saying a word?
Mr. HUTCHISON. He never said a word. That was odd. I began to notice that after that happened a couple or three times. Most anyone will say, "Thank you," or "Good morning," or something; but he never said a word.
This is a friendly store, Mr. Jenner. It's not a cold store like a chainstore or anything like that. We don't change help and it's just a--well, it's a neighborhood supermarket, is what it is.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; I should bring this out; this is an independent store, it's not a chainstore?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it's independent--not a chainstore.
Mr. JENNER. And you're both the owner and the manager?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it's a neighborly neighborhood store?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now you say there was an occasion when he attempted to cash a check?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, would you first fix the date--I assume you can't recall the exact date but fix the month and the time of the month.
Mr. HUTCHISON. It would be the first week in November. To the best of my recollection, it was after this incident of the buying of the bill of groceries.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And what time of day was that?
Mr. HUTCHISON. It was in the afternoon, sir, between 5 and 6 o'clock--because I'm in the cage. I have a check-cashing cage, and on busy days I go into the cage and, naturally, I cash 90 percent of the checks--especially the big checks.
Mr. JENNER. I see. Now, I think you've told me that you are in your store on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Nights.
Mr. JENNER. Nights?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. But you are there during the day every day, also?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir. I run my store. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So, you are in your store in the neighborhood of the 5 o'clock period every day?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Every day; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now what day of the week was this?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Friday.
Mr. JENNER. Friday?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it was around 5 or 5:30?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Between 5 and 6 o'clock, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, using your own words, describe the incident, commencing giving the background.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, they line up to cash their checks.
Mr. JENNER. And you were in the cage?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I was in the cage.
Mr. JENNER. And there were people lined up to cash checks?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; sometimes 8 to 10 line up--because we have Ling Electric, we have Temco, and we have Chance Vought. We also have General Motors people who live in Irving. And Friday is a big check-cashing day.
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Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh.
Mr. HUTCHISON. And I always step into the cage to cash checks and, naturally, I know most people who come in. And this was a two-party check.
Mr. JENNER. What do you mean by that?
Mr. HUTCHISON. A two-party check means that it was not a payroll check, but a personal check given to him.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. HUTCHISON. And, as best as I can remember, it was $189---which is strictly against our rules to cash. We don't cash any two--party checks over $25.
Mr. JENNER. I see.
Mr. HUTCHISON. And so I just merely told him, "I'm sorry; I can't cash this check."
Mr. JENNER. Excuse me. If I call that a personal check--is that an apt description? You call it a "two-party" check, meaning----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It's drawn by an individual and payable to an individual?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Right. That's right. An individual check payable to an individual.
Mr. JENNER. As distinguished from a payroll check?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes; as distinguished from a payroll check.
Mr. JENNER. And your practice is to limit your risk on that type of check to $25?
Mr. HUTCHISON. $25; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And your recollection is that that check was in the amount of $189.
Mr. HUTCHISON. $189; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right. And he finally reached the wicket, or----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; the cage.
Mr. JENNER. He came to the head of the line, eventually?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Then tell me what happened, as best you can recall.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, he put the check up there and, of course, that's what everyone does. They put it up there and you look at the check and you observe the check and you either make up your mind whether you're going to cash it or not. But, of course, like I say, with the rule that I have, there never was any doubt in my mind what I was going to do with it. I just handed it back to him. I said, "I'm sorry. This is a two-party check, and we don't cash this amount in a two-party check.
Mr. JENNER. Did he say anything about that?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Not a word. Not a word. He just looked at me and picked up the check and got out of line and walked on out.
Mr. JENNER. Did he have any expression on his face that arrested your attention?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you think he understood what you meant by a "two-party" check?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Why, I'm sure he must have because I specifically said to him, "This is a two-party check and our rules and regulations are that we don't cash this large a check---two-party check."
Mr. JENNER. He didn't seem irritated?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he accepted your explanation?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall whether or not--let's see, you were in the cage, but despite that, do you have any recollection as to whether he purchased anything on that trip?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I couldn't say, because the cage is high enough that you have to stand up to see across the store. It's not caged completely in but there's a glass window----
Mr. JENNER. In any event, you didn't serve him anything.
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. Sure didn't.
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Mr. JENNER Do you recall the payee of the check?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. I sure don't. It just didn't enter my mind, Mr. Jenner, after it was that amount. I wouldn't care who it was, I wouldn't have cashed it because, like I say, I have my rules and regulations and if I violate them, my help can violate them, too--so, I just don't do it.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall anything about the check--the form of the check--other than it was a two-party check?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't. I couldn't tell you where it was given and who wrote the check. All I looked at was--it was the amount.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection--do you know what a counter check is?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I know what a counter check is. It was a counter check. It wasn't a printed--it wasn't a personalized check. It was a printed check.
Mr. JENNER. I'm going to hand you one of my own personal checks [handing to witness.] Now, that's what you call a printed personalized check?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. That's a printed personalized check.
Mr. JENNER. And it was not that form?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir. This was just a counter check. They all have it right here [indicating on check]---it's in the form of a draft on the Dallas market here. You have the name of your bank in print--like this bank is printed in here. [Indicating on check.]
Mr. JENNER. Yes. But on a counter check, the bank is not imprinted?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. It just has your date and "Pay to the Order of," and your signature here and, of course, they all have your micronized letters--they all have that now because each bank puts them out.
Mr. JENNER. Yes; but they do not appear on counter checks.
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Under the circumstances you have explained, now you did not make a mental note and you do not now have a recollection of the person to whom this counter check was payable?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir. I sure don't, Mr. Jenner.
Mr. JENNER. On these mornings when he came in, these were occasions when you were not too busy?
Mr. HUTCHISON. That's right.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have any recollection at all--and if so, state the extent of it--as to whether he arrived at your place of business in some vehicle automobile?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Always walking.
Mr. JENNER. Always walking?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Always walking. Yes, sir. He was always walking. Because, once or twice, I'd be sweeping the sidewalks--I sweep the sidewalk every morning--and he'd be coming down the Storey side.
Mr. JENNER. All right. I was about to get to that. He was coming down the Storey side--let's see if I can put it in my vernacular a little. From what direction was he coming, normally, when you saw him?
Mr. HUTCHISON. From north to south.
Mr. JENNER. He was moving from the north to the south?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Which would be coming from the direction of the Paine home?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did you notice the direction in which he went when he departed your store?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; he just went right around the corner. See, from my door there's only about 25 feet from the entrance of the door to the corner of the building. My checking stand is on the, what you would say, the west side of the building. He'd go out the door and just go right around the corner.
Mr. JENNER. And in what direction would he be moving then, after he turned the corner?
Mr. HUTCHISON. North.
Mr. JENNER. And then what street would he be on?
Mr. HUTCHISON. That would be Storey, sir.
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Mr. JENNER. So, he was retracing his steps?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; retracing his steps.
Mr. JENNER. Now, on the occasion when these three people were in your store on that evening, you're not able now to fix that occasion any more definitely as to point of time than sometime between the 1st and the did you say the 15th of November?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Fifteenth of October, sir; to the 1st of--uh----
Mr. JENNER. November?
Mr. HUTCHISON. November. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And it was not in the month of November?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Do you have a recollection of having been interviewed by a representative of the FBI----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. On this occasion?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And he questioned you about the incident of the evening----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And substantially the things that I am examining you about?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And did you give him, then, your very best recollection of what you recalled at that time?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I sure did, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
And this interview was shortly after the assassination?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. The 3d of December, 1963?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it was.
Mr. JENNER. How much milk did he buy on these morning occasions?
Mr. HUTCHISON. A gallon.
Mr. JENNER. A whole gallon?
Mr. HUTCHISON. A whole gallon of milk; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Now, the Internal Revenue Service might be interested in this: Tell me again, and with prices to the extent you can recall, what his normal purchase was on the mornings that he came in.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, the milk sells for 79 a gallon and the cinnamon rolls are 39. So, you see, that would be $1.18.
Mr. JENNER. Did he ever buy any bread?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with any bills of large denomination?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever see him with a--well, I don't know; maybe "large denomination," doesn't help us very much on these morning occasions, did he ever hand you a $5 or a $10 bill?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; it was always a dollar and some change.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Either a dollar and a half or a dollar and a quarter--or sometimes two dimes. He had almost the correct change.
Mr. JENNER. Always?
Mr. HUTCHISON. He was within a few cents--30 or 40 cents of his purchase.
Mr. JENNER. However, on the evening occasion, when they bought--what expression did we use?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Full line of groceries?
Mr. JENNER. Did he have bills on that occasion?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Sir, I didn't check him.
Mr. JENNER. You didn't check him?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I didn't check him; no, sir.
Mr. JENNER. So, you don't know?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I don't know, sir. I sure don't.
Mr. JENNER. But your recollection is that purchase would run somewhere between $15 and $20?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; $15 and $20.
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Mr. JENNER. From that, you would conclude that he must have had some bills larger than a dollar?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; he would have had to have larger bills that day.
Mr. JENNER. Or else he would have had to have a number of dollar bills.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think I failed to ask you what you thought his weight was.
Mr. HUTCHISON. I would say his weight was somewhere in the neighborhood of 155 to 160.
Mr. JENNER. What is your recollection as to his dress in the sense of neatness, cleanliness?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, I wouldn't say he was dirty, but he was shabbily dressed.
Mr. JENNER. Uh, huh.
Mr. HUTCHISON. He was shabbily dressed--cheap slacks, and like I said, the jacket was cheap, and his shirts were always open, he never had a tie, he wasn't what you would call neatly dressed. He always looked well, like just a common worker.
Mr. JENNER. I gather from all this that it was your impression that he was a person of little means?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. What about his neatness? Was he always shaven?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; he was always shaven.
Mr. JENNER. His hair neatly combed?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Hair cut and neatly combed; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you didn't notice anything about, did you, that he always needed a haircut or----
Mr. HUTCHISON. No; I would say that he was pretty well----
Mr. JENNER. In that respect, you would call him normal?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Normal; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. All right.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Because, you know, I'd notice if a person doesn't have a hair-cut. Naturally, I would on account of my help and everything like that. I have to observe those things.
Mr. JENNER. Yes. Are you able to describe Mrs. Paine to me?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Well, she's an ordinary person I mean----
Mr. JENNER. Physical characteristics, I mean, first.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. Well, she's about 5 foot 4 and I'd say her weight was around 122 and 124--I'd say between 115 and 125. Uh--she's not a beautiful woman, but she's attractive.
Mr. JENNER. What about her age?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Oh I'd say--uh--between 42 and 46 years of age.
Mr. JENNER. Are you acquainted with Mr. Paine?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. In the first place, do you know that there is a Mr. Paine?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I sure don't.
Mr. JENNER. Do you know whether the lady you have in mind does or does not have children and if so----
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Whenever she was in your store did she have children with her?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; she was alone.
Mr. JENNER. Always alone. When was the last time you saw this person that you have in mind in your store?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Oh, I'd say in January----
Mr. JENNER. Of this year?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Of this year. Yes, sir. She's been in since----
Mr. JENNER. She may well have been in on other occasions----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Oh, yes; yes.
Mr. JENNER. But the last time you recall her was in January?
Mr. HUTCHISON. January. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Well, you were never able to strike up any conversation with this man, so----
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Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I couldn't have told you he lived with her, or anything.
Mr. JENNER. All you know is that he was a person that came from that direction?
Mr. HUTCHISON. He came from the north and came in the store yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And you do recall distinctly that, from the occasion of the assassination, you have never seen this man in your store?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; no, sir; I've never seen him.
Mr. JENNER. And what arrested your attention in this regard was that you saw a photograph of Marina Oswald published in one of the Dallas papers?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And seeing that photograph, you noticed a resemblance between the lady you had seen in your store the evening you've described----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And that particular photograph?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; that's the only time I ever saw her.
Mr. JENNER. Did you see, either published in the newspapers or published in magazines somewhere or other, or on television, any pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I saw them on television; yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And tell us when you saw the television pictures that you now have in mind.
Mr. HUTCHISON. I saw the television program on Sunday afternoon after he was shot here.
Mr. JENNER. That's the 24th of November 1963?
Mr. HUTCHISON Yes, sir; that's the first time I recognized that he had been in my store.
Mr. JENNER. You recognized the man you saw on the television Sunday afternoon?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And the man who had come in your store of a morning?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; I remarked to my wife the minute I saw it. I was working when he was shot in the morning. I didn't see the actual--I didn't see the--but they rerun it that Sunday.
Mr. JENNER. You saw the rerun that Sunday afternoon?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. I told my wife then, I said, "That fellow has traded--" --and I related to her what I told you, just casually.
Mr. JENNER. Had you seen the newspaper picture of the lady, Marina Oswald, prior to the time you saw the television rerun on Sunday afternoon?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; that was later.
Mr. JENNER. All right, Mr. Hutchison, is there anything that occurs to you now that I haven't brought out that you think might be helpful to the Commission in this important work of the Commission?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I don't.
Mr. JENNER. That you know? Any facts?
Mr. HUTCHISON. I'd be happy to tell you because----
Mr. JENNER. I'm sure you would.
Mr. HUTCHISON. I'm certainly a person who wants to help in every way--in any way.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Now, I have no further questions.
It's your privilege, Mr. Hutchison, to read over your deposition as soon as it is transcribed if you desire to do so. And this nice young lady will have this transcribed so it may be read, oh, let us say, Tuesday of next week. And if you wish to do so, you may come in and read it, and if you think there is anything in the deposition----
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That is incorrectly reported, why we'd like to have you advise us of that. Or you may waive all this procedure as you see fit.
Mr. HUTCHISON. I can waive it right now, Mr, Jenner. I have no----
Mr. JENNER. Then, you would like to waive it?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir, yes, sir; I'd be glad to, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think I might add--when you were interviewed on the 3d of December----
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Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Which is some months ago, to the best of your recollection did you report to the FBI agent, who was Mr. Berry--do you recall that name?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; Mr. Berry was the man that came out--yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. It was then your recollection that the time that Oswald--the man you recognized as Oswald--tendered the check for cashing was November 8--that is, you used the expression, "Three weeks ago?"
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; that would pinpoint it closer.
Mr. JENNER. Does that refresh your recollection now----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. As to the time it was?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it does.
Mr. JENNER. Do you recall that on that occasion, that interview, that you told Mr. Berry that the occasion when the elderly lady, the young lady, and Oswald were in your store--that's an evening?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You recall the incident?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. That it was on Wednesday evening November 13, 1963, rather than in October--between the 15th and the 1st of November, as you've testified today?
Mr. HUTCHINSON. [Pausing before reply.] Mr. Jenner, the best--it was before the check cashing.
Mr. JENNER. Incident?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; it was before that. Yes, sir; because he tried to cash the check after he'd bought the bill of groceries.
Mr. JENNER Yes; you fixed the time of day as the same.
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. And according to the report I have and all I have is the report----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. You fixed the date as November 13. But, now, that you've been able to reflect further about it. This check-cashing incident as related to the time when the three of them were in----
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir; was before.
Mr. JENNER. Was before rather than after?
Mr. HUTCHISON. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Mr. JENNER. I think that's all--no--one other thing I'd like to say to you. We did have a little bit of conversation before we started your deposition and we've been off the record once or twice--is there anything that I discussed with you while we were off the record or before your testimony began that you think is pertinent that I have failed to bring out?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir.
Mr. JENNER. Is there anything that occurred during that time that you told me that you think is inconsistent with any of the testimony you have given--and which I failed to bring out?
Mr. HUTCHISON. No, sir; I think it's very full on everything I know.
Mr. JENNER. All right. Thank you very much. We're sorry to have inconvenienced you but we very much appreciate your help.
Mr. HUTCHISON. That's all right--it's perfectly all right. That's just something that everybody should do if they're good Americans.
Mr. JENNER. Thank you.