TESTIMONY OF ANDREW ARMSTRONG, JR.
The testimony of Andrew Armstrong, Jr., was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Andrew Armstrong.
Mr. Armstrong, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
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staff of the General Counsel of the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of the Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedures adopted by the Commission, in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take this sworn deposition from you, Mr. Armstrong.
I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relative to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular, as to you, Mr. Armstrong, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry and about Jack Ruby and his operations and associates and so forth.
Now, Mr. Armstrong, I think you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the Staff of the President's Commission, asking you to be present. Isn't that correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that letter, Mr. Armstrong?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. 2 days ago.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean on Sunday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. On a Saturday--I'm sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be Saturday, April 11th.
Do you have any objection at the present moment to having your deposition taken today?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise and raise your right hand so that I may administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name, please?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Andrew Armstrong, Jr.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Armstrong?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. 27.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. 3821 Dixon Circle, apt. C.
Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been married?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. 10 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any children?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. One, a little girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been married before?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the maiden name of your wife?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Childress.
Mr. HUBERT. And her first name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Eleanor Childress.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you born?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Pittsburg, Tex. Cass County.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Unofficially--14 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And when you left that place, where did you go?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Here to Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. To Dallas?
Mr. ARMSTONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been in Dallas ever since?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did you complete your education in Dallas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--I didn't complete it--I went to the 11th grade.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I mean what education you do have was finished in Dallas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was finished in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. How far did you go?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. 11th.
Mr. HUBERT. At what age did you quit school?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At 16, I think--16 or 17.
Mr. HUBERT. How have you been occupied since you left school?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, what work have you done?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A number of things--should I go through them?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; just briefly.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was--right after I left school, I was caddymaster at River Hills golf course. I left there and went to--well, I had a job at Vick's Cafeteria in the Republic Bank Building--no, no--I'm sorry, it was Wilson's Cafeteria, and then Vick's Restaurant; then Vinson Still.
Mr. HUBERT. Is Vinson Still a corporation or individual?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was a corporation.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Cut stainless steel--I mean--filled orders of stainless steel and magnesium---cut magnesium. I started out as a porter.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, continue.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Then, I did a prison stretch for marihuana for 3 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you convicted in State court?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. State court.
Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When were you convicted?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were sentenced to how many years in prison?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Five.
Mr. HUBERT. How many did you actually serve?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three.
Mr. HUBERT. That was on a charge of possession? Possession and sale of marihuana?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of your release?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The date was March 18, 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that on a parole situation?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; that was discharged.
Mr. HUBERT. That was what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Discharge.
Mr. HUBERT. How was the time reduced then from 5 years to approximately 3?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, in this State you do 3 years or do 5.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean for good time and so forth?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, for good time you can reduce some of that time.
Mr. HUBERT. The point is, that when you left the prison you were not on probation?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was not on probation. When I came back I started to work at the Holiday Hills Apartments, belonging to the Hunt Oil Co., and Bowman Real Estate, I think it was.
Mr. HUBERT. That's in Dallas here?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was a maintenance man out there.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Holiday Hills Apartments?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That's owned by the Hunt Oil Co.?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the Bowman Real Estate?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was the one that built it, I think he built it and sold it for half interest or something.
Mr. HUBERT. What Hunt is that in the Hunt Oil Co.?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It's H. L. Hunt Co.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Hunt?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Lamar Hunt?
Mr. ARMSTONG. I have seen him--I don't know him.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same man as H. L. Hunt Oil Co.?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the same man--he was in charge, and when I left the Holiday Hills----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, before you leave the Holiday Hills and Hunt Oil Co., you say that you have seen a Mr. Hunt, but have not talked to him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir; I have never talked to him.
Mr. HUBERT. And that one you saw was H. L. Hunt?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no--it was Lamar, and a few of his brothers, a couple of his brothers, I think it was--it was on the 4th of July or a Labor Day, I don't know which one it was, I don't recall, and they had a party out there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the relationship between Lamar Hunt and H. L Hunt?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Father and son.
Mr. HUBERT. But you never met H. L. Hunt?
Mr. ARMSTONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But you have seen him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who employed you over there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A Mrs. Pierson was the manager. I dropped in one afternoon for a job and she gave me the opportunity to work there for a week to see if I did a good job, so she hired me.
Mr. HUBERT. When you were employed by this lady to work for the Holiday Hills Apartments, did they know you had been in the penitentiary?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after you left the penitentiary did you apply and receive the job?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let's see, it was sometime during the summer of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. About the middle of the summer, you mean?
Mr. ARMSTONG. I'm pretty sure I think it was about the middle of the summer.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in the meantime, between March when you left the penitentiary?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I mostly just picked up odd jobs trying to make a buck, just odd jobs, whatever I could find to do.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you kept out of trouble ever since?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes. I have an application in for full pardon, recommended by Mr. "Bill" Decker himself.
Mr. HUBERT. By Mr. who?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The sheriff.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the sheriff?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to know him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, mostly through--I've seen him more times through going down to visit Jack, because you had to go through Mr. Decker.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Mr. Decker prior to the time that Oswald was killed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not too well--well, no, in a way I did and in a way I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, explain that, please.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Back when I was a caddymaster at River Hills golf course someone broke in it out there and I was picked up on investigation, which someone else testified to later that they had did it.
Mr. HUBERT. At first they thought you had done it?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--that's when I first met Mr. Decker.
Mr. HUBERT. How often did you see him after you left the penitentiary and until the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I only saw him--let's see we will come back to about January 1962- I had got a job at Marilyn Belt Factory just across from the county jail, and I used to see Mr. Decker, you know, I used to pass him on the street there and I would always speak to him, which he always would speak back, which he would always speak back to everyone who speaks to him whether he knows them or not, and I guess I saw him 10 or 15 times.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever in his office?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not until after the slaying of Lee Oswald, the one time was for the investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. So, in other words, after you left the penitentiary your acquaintance with Sheriff Decker amounted to nothing more than seeing him on the streets and saying "hello?"
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never conversed with him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any reason to believe he knew your name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he didn't know my name until after the slaying.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why he has agreed now to support your application for a pardon?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I believe that Mr. Decker did some investigating on me and when I went in to ask him, he went through the procedure of having my record checked, since I have been out, and before he recommended me.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell me, in connection with the application for a pardon, is it necessary to get the approval of the sherriff?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It is necessary to get the approval of some officer.
Mr. HUBERT. And you chose the sheriff?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I chose the sheriff. I was either going to choose the sheriff or Mr. Gilmore, the head of the vice squad. He has been in the club lots of times.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Gilbert--I don't know whether he's in charge of the vice squad for the city or not, but he is around and he has been to the club, checking in like he does, like policemen do, and he got to--he would always speak to me when he come in and he was always very nice and I was always very nice to him and I'm pretty sure he had some checking done on me, too.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, you chose Sheriff Decker?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I chose one of the two of them because I didn't know anybody else to approach--any other officers.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, I think we had left off with our analysis of your employment since you left the penitentiary, that you had worked for the Holiday Hills Apartments--how long did you work for them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, about 8 or 9 months--it wasn't too long.
Mr. HUBERT. And that employment began, in the summer of 1961?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, and it ended a little before Christmas--I think it was around the lst of December.
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1961?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would hardly have been 9 months.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I believe that's right--I imagine.
Mr. HUBERT. You think then, you actually began to work with them probably in May or June of 1961?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see, if you left just before Christmas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. You know, come to think of it, I think it was, because it was around the spring--so it must have been about the last of April or the lst of May.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, you worked for about 7 months and left around Christmas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for your leaving?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Discharged.
Mr. HUBERT. What caused it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know the cause.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I have recently, 5 or 6 days ago--Mrs. Pierson who is not there any more, and I wanted to ask her.
Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Pierson being the lady who had originally employed you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. She was the one who discharged you, too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about 5 or 6 days ago?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I wanted to contact her to find out why I was discharged. I have a reason--it was because of one of the maids out there, but I'm not for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you suspect that it was on the complaint of one of the maids?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, yes; something like that--something.
Mr. HUBERT. But, you did not reach Mrs. Pierson?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you really don't know even now?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I'm still trying to find out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask her at the time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I asked her at the time and was refused to be told why.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Christmas, 1961--what was your next employment?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let's see---at the Marilyn Belt Factory in January.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the place that's right opposite the sheriff's office?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right opposite the sheriff's office.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for them? Commencing in January 1962.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I worked for them 2 months, then I got the job at the Carousel Club with Jack and I held both of the jobs for about a month and it got to where I had to let one go, so I let the Marilyn Belt Factory go.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you began to work at the Carousel Club in about February of 1962?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get employment with the Carousel Club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let's go back--it wasn't in February--you see, I started to work at the Marilyn Belt Factory in February, and I worked about 2 months with the Marilyn Belt Factory--that's February and March and April--3 months, because I started to work for Jack the 1st of May, about the second day in May.
Mr. HUBERT. In 1962?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you worked both places for about a month?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. For about a month.
Mr. HUBERT. Which would take you to June 1, 1962, and then you had to make a choice, so you decided to go with the Carousel Club and you left the other job?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, coming back to the question--how did you come to be employed in May of 1962 at the Carousel Club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just walked in and he was sitting down talking to some man--I have never saw him before--yes, I have--he was a waiter over at the Baker Hotel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that there was an opening there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you known Jack Ruby before?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any advertisements in the paper?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sign on the door indicating that help was needed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
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Mr. HUBERT. Can you help us in ascertaining why you just walked in to get the job?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was on a Saturday morning and I decided I would go look for me a night job some place.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. What I wanted was a night job, so I decided the club would be the best thing, so I went to three or four clubs, and when I went to Field and Commerce, I was going to go to H. L. Green's for a cup of coffee or something like that and I started back up Commerce and I saw the door open there and I just pulled over and went in.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you had tried three or four other places before you went to the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. On this same Saturday morning?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. On this same date.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was about the 2d of May, I think you said, in 1962?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right--about the 2d of May, I'm pretty sure.
Mr. HUBERT. It was in the first part of May, do you think?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Pardon?
Mr. HUBERT. It was about the first part of May, you think, and it was a Saturday morning?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. I have a calendar for 1962 before me, and it shows the first Saturday in May was the 5th.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was the 5th?
Mr. HUBERT. I'm showing you that calendar for 1962; does that help you any?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you see why I said the 2d was later on, we tried to figure I was signing a couple of checks about 2 weeks later and we were trying to figure out what date I started so I could fill out a W-2 form and we got to counting the days and we counted back to the 2d, so this was on a Saturday--it was on a Saturday, so it must have been the 5th. You see, things always happen so fast when you was around Jack because he was just like this--flighty.
Mr. HUBERT. The day you walked in there, he was in the Carousel--he was in the office?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he was sitting down there, just sitting in the club at a table.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he alone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was talking to a waiter from across--it was a waiter across the street which worked up there that night, that Saturday night, and he never worked there any more, but that only one night that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us how you introduced yourself and how he came to employ you, and so forth?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I asked him if he needed any help at night and he said as a matter of fact he did and he said, "I've been looking for a clean-cut young man like you," and so he said a few things--he asked me had I ever been in any kind of trouble and naturally I told him, "No." I always tell people "No," unless it is absolutely necessary, so he said to come back that night, so I went back that night and worked.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you fix your salary at that time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not exactly. We fixed the salary the next day, no, the Monday--the following Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was that salary?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That salary was $40 or $45 a week.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it remain that way or did you get an increase?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it remained that way.
Mr. HUBERT. You never got any more than that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; just plus tips.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your job around there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, at first it was just bartending and then it got to be--it was bartending, then it got to be straightening the place up a little bit because there was another man that came in, Howard Haynes.
Mr. HUBERT. Howard Haynes?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, but he always did sort of a half job, and so then it got to be where I spent most of the afternoon there just taking phone calls and reservations and things like that, and taking care of all of the buying and things like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by taking care of the buying?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, taking care of the buying--whatever that had to be bought--whatever stock they needed--no food, just beer.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understand you, as you stayed on longer, you assumed more responsibility?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And more duties?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, and they got me to where I was doing the hiring of the waitresses and contacting different peoples about acts and things like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby delegated the authority to you to actually employ people, both as waitresses and for acts?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, not actually employ them for acts, but contact them--he already knowed who he wanted and I just contacted certain persons.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would do the legwork, shall we say, about getting these acts?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Certainly not all of them, just some of them--when he didn't have time to.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell Jack, or did he ever find out you had been in the penitentiary?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never told him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he knows to this day about it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know whether he knows--you see, I never told anyone connected with him until the trial, and then I told Mr. Phil Burleson.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify in the trial?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You had been subpenaed, I think.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was subpenaed.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it get to the point where you handled the money of the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How was the money handled?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was--I always had $225 in my possession. That was for a bank every night, you know, to start things off and at the end of the night when I checked up, I would give him the receipts for the night and I would take what I had put in back to the safe and so, with the buying on Thursdays, when I took care of all of the purchases, I would give him the receipts and the total of the receipts---he would return the money to me.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you always kept for making change for beginning the night's operation, the sum of $225.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And the next day after the night's operation, you would turn over to him----
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I would always give it to him that night.
Mr. HUBERT. The same night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir; the same night.
Mr. HUBERT. You would give him everything but the $225.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about paying for the goods that you bought?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, that was--happened the same way.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a cash basis?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; most everything was cash.
Mr. HUBERT. You would pay it out of the $225.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would pay it out of the $225, and he would give me the money back that I had spent.
Mr. HUBERT. So, that, you began with $225 each night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And usually he would put the money in the safe, that is to say, the amount of $225?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I would put the $225--I kept that money.
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Mr. HUBERT. You kept the $225?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I put it in the safe.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the $225 only?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just the $225 only.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you have a safe, when did you get one?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he always has had a little old safe in the office. This was a little cabinetlike thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that one that had a slot on the side of it, so you could slip the money in it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not that one. He had just recently bought that one--I would say it was in October last year.
Mr. HUBERT. Previous to the safe which was bought in October, there was another?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And he kept that in the office?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He kept that in the office--it was a cabinet you opened with a key. It had little cabinet drawers in it and some little small ones.
Mr. HUBERT. It didn't have a combination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; no combination.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a filing cabinet like--it had two file cabinet drawers, about the size of those on the left-hand side there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the usual legal size four drawer steel cabinet.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. But only two of those on the left-hand side and on the right-hand side at the top it was three or two little drawers, about the size of one of those stacks and one about that deep, where you could open it with a key.
Mr. HUBERT. So, it really had two keys?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, just the one--the same key would fit the one on the inside.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack keep the money that you gave him as to the profit over the $225 in that place, too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he never kept anything.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he handle that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know--he usually would go to the bank once or twice a week, or, he mostly kept--usually he kept the payroll on him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a checking account?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had an account at the Texas Bank, at the Merchants State Bank on Ross Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that he would deposit this cash in that account?
Mr. ARMSTONG. There was always a little money in that account, but I don't know whether he deposited it or not--all of it in that account or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he pay his bills, such as for the stripteases and the band?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every Sunday night.
Mr. HUBERT. In cash or check?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In cash.
Mr. HUBERT. And he paid all the supplies and purchases in cash, too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In cash.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he paid anything by check?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the rent?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. What?
Mr. HUBERT. What about the rent?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The rent was paid by cash with a cashier's check.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever purchase a cashier's check?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He would give you the money and you went to the bank and got the cashier's check for it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Cashier's check.
Mr. HUBERT. But when you said a little while ago that he would take the money and go to the bank, what did you mean?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he would always go two or three time--I'm sure-- a week, that he was at the bank. I don't know whether he deposited money or not, but he did have an account and there was an account there in the name of the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. But do you know of your own knowledge whether he used it as a checking account normally is used?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was used as a checking account, but I never--I have seen checks that he had written, that was, you know, after they went through and then he got them back--I had seen those.
Mr. HUBERT. Canceled checks--you mean?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; checks that went through the bank already and went through his deposit.
Mr. HUBERT. That's what I mean by canceled checks--in other words, after the check goes through, it is returned to the maker.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Returned--yes--right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a lot of those?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I saw quite a few small payments on different things, but I don't know whether he had a whole lot of them or not.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at, Mr. Armstrong, is whether or not Ruby kept the income from the Carousel on his person or did he deposit it in the bank?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I believe that the biggest part of his money, he kept it in his purse on his person.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any idea how much he would have on his person in that way as an average?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, it would be hard to say, because I have seen times when he would come in and he would have quite a bit of money in his pocket, but it would all be, you know, rubber bands--wrapped around with rubber bands, and he never would take it a loose or anything like that. A few times he would get it all mixed up in his pocket and he would straighten out the tens and the ones--separate the ones from the fives, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. Who made the payroll?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He made the payroll.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you ever do that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. After the slaying.
Mr. HUBERT. No, I mean before that.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist him in making the payroll?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn't work on Sunday night.
Mr. HUBERT. And that's when he paid everybody?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's when he paid everybody.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do know he paid by cash?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He paid by cash.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him take any money to his automobile?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What would he do with it when he put it in his automobile?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. What would he do with it? He would put it in his trunk--that he had in his pocket he would keep in his pocket--and that he had in his little moneybag he would put it in his trunk.
Mr. HUBERT. He had a moneybag in the trunk?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had a little sack--the same one he carried his pistol in, in a little Merchants State Bank, a little moneybag.
Mr. HUBERT. And the pistol was in that bag?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually it would be in one of those little money bank bags.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him carry the pistol on his body?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; it would always be in a little bag.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no occasion at all when you ever saw him have that pistol in his pocket or stuck in his waist belt?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he kept the pistol for?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I always assumed he kept it for--because he carried the cash on him.
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Mr. HUBERT. Well, the pistol wouldn't do him much good in the trunk of the car if he had the cash on his body, would it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not much.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any other reason then to suggest as to why he did?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he would always bring it in the club at night.
Mr. HUBERT. Pistol?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was brought in just in case he was robbed or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's see--we have a little difference there--I had understood you to say that the pistol was always kept in the bag which was in the trunk of the car.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I said he would always bring it in when he would come to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. I see, but when he would bring it in, he would not put it on or keep it on his person?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would he bring it in in the bag?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He would bring it in in the bag and put it in the office back there.
Mr. HUBERT. So, there would be the money and the pistol and the bag that were all in the office?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. All in the office.
Mr. HUBERT. And then at night he would take the money and the pistol, which were in the bag, and bring it out to the car?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And bring it out to the car, but most of the time the money that he had in his bag would be left in the car, unless he was up early in the day and was handling cash--he just left it in the office some place because he wasn't going back out, but if he left, and went home to get dressed or something like that, and come back about 9:30 or 10 o'clock, he would lock the money, if he had it in the back in the trunk.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that almost every night he would bring the pistol from the car to the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. And then when he left at night, he would carry the pistol back?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was always in the bag?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Always in the bag, that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep the pistol in the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Back in the office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him use it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't mean by shooting anybody, but by hitting somebody with it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never saw him use it.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what sort of man he was?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Worried and disturbed always.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did that manifest itself so that you could tell that he was worried and disturbed always?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Now, I'll tell you this--there was always--if he was sitting down inside the club in the daytime at one of the tables and some people came in, he would always want to hold a conversation with them, he would always want to talk about something, and I have seen numbers of times when someone had said something about a certain thing, he would get angry about it without even knowing it--he would just get angry, just like that, but that would pass over in a matter of seconds.
Mr. HUBERT. When he got angry, how did he act?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He would always let people know if they said anything that he didn't like.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he act?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sort of like ungentlemanlike in a nice way--let me see if I can explain it any better?
Mr. HUBERT. I wish you would.
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was like I'll give you an example, which is the best way I can explain it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have seen at times when he would walk up to someone that had the feet out in the aisle and the girls couldn't get by or some man doing something that he didn't have any business, like hitting the girls when they passed by, or something like that, and they would tell Jack--if he was in a certain mood or something was bothering him, he wouldn't go over and say--ask his customers who were spending money in his club, in a nice way not to do that, he would just hit him on the shoulder like this and say, "Watch it, Buddy, I don't allow that in my place"--you know--real mean like which is something that I never approved of.
Mr. HUBERT. He did that quite often?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Quite often, and that's the way it would happen with any stranger.
Now, if he knew someone, he would always hold off or get someone else to do it. If he knew somebody and they were doing something he didn't like, he would always get me or one of the girls to do it.
Mr. HUBERT. We started off this sequence of questions by your statement that he was always worried and disturbed, I think was the phrase, and you have given me that example. Weren't there some times when he was not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was very few times when he was not and I always had the feeling that if he had that smile and talking and laughing, if it lasts all night, I always had the feeling that he would still have that worried and disturbed look and expression, later on after the club closed, somewhere after--I don't know--after he got in bed or the next morning or something like that. It never lasted long.
Mr. HUBERT. You got along all right with him, didn't you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. We got along--we was always arguing, differences of opinion and things like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he nasty with you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not--I wouldn't say he was nasty. I would say if I didn't know him--I would say he was nasty. I would say that I would go so far as to say that he was even cruel.
Mr. HUBERT. To you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. To me and to a lot of the employees.
Mr. HUBERT. Give us some examples of the cruelty you are speaking of.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you could say--we had a speaker in the corner, a high fidelity speaker over in the right-hand corner.
Mr. HUBERT. A loudspeaker?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, in the right-hand corner and it had to be turned on individually. It had to turned on or it wouldn't come over the system and it was my job to see that it was turned on every night, and there was times I was too busy and had too many things to do and forgot about it, but not that often, and if he came in--the first thing he checked was the sound. The MC was on stage and if he couldn't hear that box over there, he would come straight to me and it was like I had took half of the club away or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What would he say or do?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he would just get all riled up about that--he would just get all riled up about that one little incident.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "all riled up," that's your own words of description of what he was doing, but we don't get just what his physical acts were unless you tell us. What is "riled up"? Raising his voice, cursing?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Raising his voice.
Mr. HUBERT. Throwing his voice throwing his arms about, hitting people, doing what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not hitting people he wouldn't ever hit anyone, but it always the impression that he might. There was always the feeling that he might.
Mr. HUBERT. Did his facial expressions change?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sort of like.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did he curse?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--no more than--the only curse word that he would use more when he did use it was damn it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, on occasions like he got all riled up, as you have told us, would it consist of calling you a fool or threatening to fire you or raising his voice, cursing you, what was it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Threatening to fire me would be the thing, because he fired me 50 times or 100 times.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently you didn't stay fired.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He threatened my job every day.
Mr. HUBERT. He threatened your job every day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Almost every day.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what would happen?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing--if I left he would call me back. If I left there fired, all I would have to do is come down and open the club up the next day and go on back to work.
Mr. HUBERT. He wouldn't tell you you were fired, stay away; you wouldn't even talk about the subject any more?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I can understand that that would happen after you had gone through that firing and rehiring once or twice, but first of all when you got fired, it must have seemed odd to you to go back?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the first time that it actually really happened was one night he fired me on Saturday night. It was a Saturday night and I usually had a ride on Saturday night because the last bus run at 1 o'clock, and if I didn't catch that ride at 1:30, well, I would have to get a cab, which I can't afford to get a cab. It is $1.65. He said something about staying a little late something--I don't know--it was a meeting, I think. He was always calling meetings.
Mr. HUBERT. Meetings of whom?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Of waitresses.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I said, "Well, I've got to catch my ride because I can't spend cab fare, and you are not going to give me cab fare," just like that, and I walked on out the door and he said, "Just don't come back no more." I said, "Okay," and before I got downstairs, he had sent one of the girls downstairs to tell me that my week wasn't up. It was on Saturday night--I worked during the day on Sunday to clean floors, and I worked during that day on Sunday 2 1/2 hours cleaning the club up, and I said, "Well, okay, tell him okay, I'll clean the club up tomorrow." Just like that, and went on, because I don't know--you see, I understood Jack, and I knew what his reasons for sending her on down was--actually not to tell me to clean the floor up but to tell me I wasn't really fired.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you had gotten fired?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was the first time.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, you came back the next day and cleaned the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he called about 11 o'clock----
Mr. HUBERT. That's on Sunday morning?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sunday morning and asked me, "Has anybody called," and a few other things--he kept one of the dogs down there--he asked me had I fed the dog. He always asked me had I fed the dog, which he would know I fed the dogs. You know, and I would always reply, "You know I will always feed the dogs, why do you keep asking me have I fed the dogs?"
Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, on this particular Sunday morning, what happened about your getting rehired?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he just said, "I'll see you Monday."
Mr. HUBERT. And from then on out I take it you figured when he fired you like that the only thing you would have to do is come back, and that is how it worked out?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, always, and he would come to the bar, I would say three times a night, and say, "If you can't do like I want you to, get out. If you
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can't do the things like I want you to, get out." Well, there was an opinion there, because I know I was at the club more than he was and I had my eyes on more things than he did and if I did a thing I know was right, because I have already experienced it before, which he hadn't----
Mr. HUBERT. What are you speaking of there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I'm speaking of----
Mr. HUBERT. I'm talking about the things you say you had observed which he had not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, about certain things--you see, we had a system going that one thing that happened was the setups were served in a glass. If you wanted cold water or whatever you wanted--were served in a glass with the ice, with about this much room for liquor [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. By "this much room" you are talking about 2 inches?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; about an inch and a quarter.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And some customers comes in there quite often and if one of the waitresses says, "Andrew, this is for so and so---Mr. so and so, and he wants his drink--he wants his setup filled so and so, in other words, about a quarter of an inch or an inch from the top, I would do it that way, because I am trying to satisfy the customer and if Jack happened to walk to the bar and see it that way, he would get all riled up because that's Coca Cola he could be saving, and I never would go through the procedure of explaining it to him--why I filled it up that way.
Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying, I think, is that you had more of an opportunity to observe the likes and dislikes of the customers than he did?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Than he did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him get angry and actually use physical violence respecting any patron or anybody at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I have seen him grab a couple of men in the club and throw them out when they was due to leave--when he asked them to.
Mr. HUBERT. And when you say "throw them out," would you explain what physical activity was involved?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than grabbing a guy and locking him behind his arm, you know, catching him through the arms this way [indicating], from behind.
Mr. HUBERT. And hustling him out?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And hustling him out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him strike anybody?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I never saw him strike anybody. Of course, it was said to be a couple of times he did strike someone.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an occasion when a taxicab driver came in there looking for someone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I wasn't working there then.
Mr. HUBERT. You have heard about that occasion?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I read about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him threaten to throw any of the girls or anybody down the stairs of the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A couple of times, I believe, I have heard him threaten to throw even a girl down the stairs.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you distinctly remember the incident about the girl, don't you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the one I remember was Diane.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Jack always said that Diane bugged him and I said we couldn't afford to lose her because she was a good waitress--she made the club money and I would say he had told Diane that she had 2 weeks' notice every other night for a whole year--they just didn't get along.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, get to the point about threatening to throw her downstairs.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he had threatened to throw her down the stairs for some reason or other--I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he start to do it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He never put his hands on her--he didn't touch her.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him put anybody out by the stair route?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--just the customers.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when he pushed the customers out, as you explained a little while ago, he did that by grabbing their arms from the back and hustling them out, you mean he hustled them downstairs?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just to the door, the stairs door.
Mr. HUBERT. There was a door at the top of the stairs?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was a door at the top of the stairs, and he would automatically give somebody the sign to call the police.
Mr. HURERT. Did you sleep in the club, ever?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, when I first started to work there when I was working the two jobs, I slept there so I could get up--I could sleep longer and be at Marilyn belt factory.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that, that after you left the factory, that you didn't sleep there any more?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 3 or 4 weeks---about 3 weeks I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby's habit with respect to arriving at the club and going home, as far as you could observe?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Unpredictable.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Unpredictable.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn't have a special time for calling and running in and so forth?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn't have any special time.
Mr. HUBERT. He did call about feeding the dogs every day, didn't he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He called.
Mr. HUBERT. That was pretty regular?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would always call his house when I got to the club about--anywhere from 12 to 1 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. You would call his house to check in with him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And then he would probably call me three or four times that day to see if any calls had come in or if he said, "I'll be down to the club at a certain time and you can look for me; I'll be there about 2 o'clock or about 3:30."
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that this much was routine, when you got to the club around midday you would call him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was a routine.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was also a routine that he would call you daily, three or four times a day, is it not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. Whether he came in or not--there was no routine about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--there was no routine about that. The most routine he had was about coming in the club at night.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was very seldom there at showtime--that's 9 o'clock--but he would always be in by 10 o'clock. In other words, he would always come in between 9 and 10.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did he stay?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He would close up.
Mr. HUBERT. Which was what time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Around 1 o'clock, I would say. He would usually spend more time at the club after the show than anybody else. In other words, if I was closing up I would be right out; if he was closing up, he would walk around and he would look for this and he would check that and just a waste of time--if he had anyone waiting on him they would probably be gone to sleep before he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to wait until all of this was finished before you left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I would always leave before the last show. In other words, I caught a 1 o'clock bus; I caught the 1 o'clock bus.
Mr. HUBERT. So you weren't there most of the time when the club closed?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. This settlement you made with him every night was really before the club closed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The settlement was for the bar; on week nights, you didn't have any bar which was after 12:15 unless it was near-beer or anything like that, and I usually checked the bar--checked my receipts and count my money--started about a quarter to 1 and if there were any sales after I left he would take them himself.
Mr. HUBERT. And that settlement that you and he went through was in his office, I take it? Or right at the bar?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; you see, I would wrap all the money up and put it in a bag and wrap a rubberband around it. The change is all that was left, with a slip in the register of how much change it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the register record the sales?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The register recorded the sales.
Mr. HUBERT. What was done with the slip of recordation?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was kept in the files.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever check to see whether the amount of sales checked out with the amount of money that you turned over to him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every day; if it was a nickel short he would call me over the phone or he would tell me about it when I called him.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this checkout would not be done when you turned over the money to him at night, but, rather, the next day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. You see, I checked it myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Against the cash register?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Against the cash register.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was supposed to balance out?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I gave him the receipts, and anytime I walked up and gave him a receipt, if I was at least a dollar short or anything like that, I would say, "It's a dollar short," and just go ahead on. I would just hand him the receipts and he would usually stick them in his coat pocket and that's the way it always would happen.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Sundays; did you come over then or did you call him the same way?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would call him on Sundays or he would call me. He would either tell me on Saturday night to wake him up a certain time on Sunday morning if he was going to get up early; if not, he would call me. He knew I would always leave anywhere from between 11 and 12 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he lived during the time you worked for him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he lived once on Marsalis, I think it was, right around the zoo, and I think he lived on Ewing.
Mr. HUBERT. Those are the only two places you know of?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Those are the only two places I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever been to either apartment?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I went to both of them--once each.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he living with anybody at either one?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The only one that I ever knowed that lived with him was George Senator.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't see George Senator working there, did you; you didn't see George Senator living with him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What you know about George Senator living there comes from what people told you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. From what people told me, and I called and he answered the phones and things like that, and Jack mentioned the fact that George kept all the food around and got him to eating again. You see, he usually was on a diet and certain foods he didn't eat because he was on a diet, but if they were around him in his refrigerator he would eat them.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack a pretty strong man?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He went to the gym quite often and exercised; is that what you mean--physical?
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Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I know he went--I called him at the gym a number of times. If he would tell me he was on his way to the gym, he would be there, and that was three times a week, I'm sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any opportunity to observe whether he was a powerful man or not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So, what you are telling us is he took exercise and went to a physical exercise club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He took exercise?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the dogs that he kept there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there is nothing much about them--just some dachshunds.
Mr. HUBERT. How many did he have?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, at one time first he had a little dog named Sheba, which was half Chihuahua or something, I don't know what it were, and she got lost, and they were named Clipper and Sheba.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, he had Sheba right up to the last, didn't he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; he had Sheba right up to the last.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, "She got lost"?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no--I mean Sweetie the little dog that got lost was named Sweetie.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you said Sheba got lost.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sheba and Clipper were the only ones he had then, and then Sheba had some puppies and they grew back up to about 9 and he started giving those away and he kept one of those.
Mr. HUBERT. He kept all of those at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; they weren't all at the club at one time.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand. What part of the club did he keep the dogs in, no matter how many he had?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the room away at the back--he kept them back there.
Mr. HUBERT. And your job was to feed them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I fed them every day.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was very strict about that, I take it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was very strict about it. I would feed the, you know, the little dogs and play with them sometimes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any opportunity to observe Jack's attitude toward women?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than any other man, especially a single man.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was not married?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he was always on the make.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go out any?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You said he was "on the make."
Mr. ARMSTRONG. All the time.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to what kind of women?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Intelligent, beautiful.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you mean the people who came to the club, or the waitresses?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, some waitresses, some dancers, and some women that he had invited to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he date any of them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He dated--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, from him--he told me a few girls he dated, and there were some girls that told me that they dated him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the girls tell you anything about their sexual relationship with him, if any?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you about any sexual relationship with any of them? With women.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No. Not in that sense; no.
Mr. HUBERT. What about his attitude toward men from a sexual point of view?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He didn't have any attitude toward men.
Mr. HUBERT. You know what I am talking about--did he have any tendencies that you could observe of homosexuality?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You know what homosexuality is, don't you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose you have seen or met perhaps people who are alleged to be homosexual?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose, too, that you are able to recognize some of the characteristics of people who are homosexuals?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any of the such characteristics?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I could observe.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason whatsoever to believe that he was a homosexual?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No reason at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason to believe whatsoever that he had any kind of sexual perversion? Do you know what I mean by that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, that he had sexual relationships either with women or men in other than the normal way?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about any possibility of a strange sexual attitude that he might have had toward these dogs you are talking about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than he loved them. I know that he would come in the club and he would lay down and take a nap and the dogs, too--Sheba would probably be lying very close to him, or one of the other little dogs, but I had a little dog that I did the same way myself.
Mr. HUBERT. What I'm getting at is his attitude in relationship to those dogs was that he loved the dogs in the way that any normal man would love dogs, and no more?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the financial condition of the club, as far as you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not good.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, before you expand into that, do you know when it opened, when the Carousel opened?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know when the Carousel opened.
Mr. HUBERT. It was open when you went there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was open when I went there.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how long it had been open, had you heard?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the first was in 1961 or I think of 1960--the last of 1960, because I think there was a prior club during 1960 there.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the Carousel had been in existence as such and under that name for about 18 months before you went with it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, why do you think the financial condition of the club was not good?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was--compared to the other two clubs it was not good, because the other two clubs--the Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club--they did a lot more business than the Carousel did.
Mr. HUBERT. When you said they did more business, you mean they had more people in there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. That would mean, I suppose, something--that there were more customers than the other place, but was the Carousel making money or losing money?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I would say it was making enough to pay the bills and paying overhead.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to Jack about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he would always--if we had a month of good business, he would say, "Business is picking up," you know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever make a calculation yourself--I don't mean necessarily by putting it down in writing, but by thinking about what you knew had come in and what you knew had gone out, to figure out whether it was making or losing money?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was making a little, but how much I don't know. It lost after the assassination, because I handled all that--all the receipts then.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you suppose were the average receipts that you know of, at least, for a week from the time you were there until Ruby went to jail?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Per week--for a week-- oh, I would say about an average of $900--or a $1,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that include Sunday nights receipts?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That would include Sunday night's.
Mr. HUBERT. How would you know about Sunday night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sunday was always a bad night--I would always know what was the receipts on Sunday night.
Mr. HUBERT. You weren't in there.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I would always know--I would be the one to file the receipts.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know that he is a very nice gentleman, a good businessman and didn't want to be bothered with the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any interest in the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; none whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Financial interest?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; financial interest.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir, I'm pretty sure he had financial interest, but I don't know how much it was.
Mr. HUBERT. When you said a minute ago he had no interest, you meant interest in running it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Interest in running the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he own a part of the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, he owned a part of the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how much?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't know how much it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sharing of profits with him that you observed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I never observed any.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as a matter of fact, didn't he come there several times a week?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually, he came in on Saturday night, if he came in. I never saw him there over one or two times.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than Saturday night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Other than Saturday night.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Jack give him any money?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him go back to the back room and discuss matters--or just go back with Jack?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I saw him in the office talking and watching television.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what makes you believe he had a financial interest?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because he told me--he told me he had a financial interest in it and Jack said he had a financial interest.
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Mr. HUBERT. Then, both Paul and Ruby told you that Paul had a financial interest in it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack told me that he didn't have no financial interest in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Paul told you that he did, but Jack told you that he did not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack told me that Ralph Paul had a financial interest in the club, but he, himself, did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that Jack himself did not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you--did he tell you whether Paul was the only one who had a financial interest, or were there other people?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he said that it was this Mr. Paul and one of his brothers.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say which one?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sam Ruby, I think, he said.
Mr. HUBERT. The one that lives in Dallas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him around there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Once once or twice he came down to help out--once he came down to help out and he came in two other times that I remember.
Mr. HUBERT. So, in other words, Jack denied that he had any interest in the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir; right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship, then, to the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, as manager only.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he get a salary, do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said he got a salary, but I don't know how much.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than the two or three times that Sam Ruby came in, did you ever see him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Did I ever see Sam Ruby?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never saw him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Ralph, other than the times you saw him at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Never did.
Mx. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of the S&R Corp.?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding of the relationship between that corporation and the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was known aS the S&R Corp. doing business as the Carousel, is the way the thing was supposed to be, and as far as the corporation was concerned, I understand that Ralph Paul was president, Sam Ruby was secretary-vice president and there was somebody else who was--well, I believe Sam Ruby was secretary-treasurer, and Jack was the manager, or something like that at one time, and then at another time, Jack wasn't even the manager.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was after all this happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. We were trying to find the Corporation papers and he took his name off as being manager of the corporation.
Mr. HUBERT. Did George Senator work at the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sometimes he did.
Mr. HUBERT. How often?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, I would say he had been there 15 or 20 times working as a doorman.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you mean 15 or 20 times during the 18 months you were there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. During the 18 months that I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be about once a month?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About once but I think it mostly came in a short period of time when he had worked there.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the 15 or 18 or 20 times he did come was not on an average of once a month, but in a sequence of days?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that there were lots of times he was never around there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. How often do you suppose you have seen him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. More than the 15 or 20 times that you saw him at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was at the club lots of times when he was not working.
Mr. HUBERT. The 18 or 20 times--you mean were the times he worked?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. He was at the club more often than that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. How often, as a matter of fact?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, once or twice a week, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. What would he do then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, just come in and have a beer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay around a long time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And visit with friends.
Mr. HUBERT. Would he stay around a long time and go home with Jack?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Lots of times he was there when I left, and lots of times he left before I left, and I have seen him lots of times working, you know, he had this Texas Postcard thing and I would see him downtown. As a matter of fact, I helped him move the postcards from where from some place out in Highland Park over to Cedar Springs here.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about his relationship in a sexual way toward men?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don't.
Mr. HUBERT. In your own opinion, you wouldn't think he would be classified as a homosexual?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He showed no traits such as you recognize them on homosexuality?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. None whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Eva Grant?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir; in a sort of a way.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, tell us what sort of way?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I have talked to her on the telephone more times than I have seen her--a number of times more than I have seen her.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times do you suppose you have seen her in the 18 months you have worked there prior to Jack's arrest?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Fifty times, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. You talked to her on the telephone far more that 50 times--3 or 4 times more?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see her when you usually saw her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The first time I saw her was at the Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work at the Vegas, too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about the ownership and operation of the Vegas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing; not a thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack have any interest in it that you heard of--I know you wouldn't know about any books or anything like that.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he told me he owned the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That's what I mean--so far as what you know about it, you got from him, and that was to the effect that he owned it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That he owned it--right.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you know about the relationship of Eva Grant to the Vegas Club.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That she was just running the club. She was his sister and she was taking care of the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack go over there very often?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know. On Friday and Saturday nights they usually have a little amateur show over there and we went over there every Friday night, but that stopped, oh, sometime in the latter part of 1963, and I don't know whether he went over there often then or not. He would call me a few times from over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, the 50 or 60 times you saw her, Eva Grant, would it have been at the Vegas or the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I had saw her more times since the assassination than I did before the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. Very well, but the 50 times or so you saw her from the time you first went to work, would that include the number of times you have seen her since the assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well----
Mr. HUBERT. Because, I had meant to restrict this inquiry as to the number of times you had seen her between the time you went to work and the assassination.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Very few times--very few.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, we have to revise, I think, to some extent, what your testimony has been, because I have been thinking that you had seen her some 50 times during the period between May 1962, and November 24, 1963, but apparently I was wrong on that.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I hadn't saw her over 10 times on that.
Mr. HUBERT. So, there are about 10 times you have seen her in the period of time prior to the assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And where would that have been usually?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I would say three times at the Vegas and the other seven times at the club. I would say she came in the club seven times and these times would be on a Monday night, I would say, about seven times she had been in that club.
Mr. HUBERT. Why do you say 7 instead of, for instance, 12 or 5?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I'm just saying I remember seeing her 3 times--I can almost pinpoint the times that I saw her. Let's see she came there Monday, Tuesday----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we need not go into the details--apparently you have some reason you remember seeing her at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was going by the times I saw her with a certain person.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that certain person?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I know that I had saw her with a little waitress named Susie the first time I saw her at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right. The next time I saw her at the Carousel she had come in with some people that I never saw before, and she always introduced me to whoever she was with if I don't know them, and the next time she came in, I think it was the accountant, Mr. Klinman, and then again she came in with some more people that I didn't ever know before.
Mr. HUBERT. Different from the first group?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Different from the first group and again she came in by herself about three times---three times--I'm sure by herself, alone.
Mr. HUBERT. That makes about seven or eight times?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. And at the Vegas you saw her three times?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three times--I was at the Vegas Club three times, I think, and saw her there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, during the period beginning from the time you first began to work there and until the assassination, how many times did you speak to her by telephone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three or four times a week.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that about?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, nothing much--you see you--she would call you and forget what she called you for, or, just to talk about her troubles.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it about the business. of the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no, just about her troubles--just to talk about her troubles. She will call me, if she needed anything fixed, she wanted me to tell Howard to stop over and do some repair work for her. I have called her about something I might need for a second night and I couldn't get it and if she had it I would send someone out for it or she would send it over to me, and things of that nature, but the biggest part of the time she called me was when she and Jack were in a row with each other.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that happen very often?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. They both--she would cry on my shoulder and he would cry on my shoulder about each other.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that happen very often?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Very often.
Mr. HUBERT. How often during the time you were there and until the assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every other week I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don't want to pin you down to anything mathematical, but during the period of 18 months, that's pretty often.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would say so.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about something like that would be 70 weeks roughly, and 18 months, and every other week would be about 35 times they had rows you know of?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would say about 35 times, if that's the way the calculation is there.
Mr. HUBERT. How did these rows come to your attention?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because they would always tell me. If it was something she didn't want to do---if it was something she wanted to do and he didn't want to do it, a lot of times it would maybe happen on the telephone from the club. It was sometimes----difference of opinions, about something.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently they patched those things up too, didn't they?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, apparently--they would always be back on good terms--it was just like, well, they were before, on the same key. In other words, Jack would get riled up and you will think he was going to walk off of this building and the next minute he was just as sweet as he could be and she was the same way.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the relationship of the club and Jack to the police department and the individual members of it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I think that the club had a good record and as far as policemen--there was no relation. There was not ever any certain policemen come into the club. We had patrolmen stop in for coffee sometimes, never the same one hardly ever.
Mr. HUBERT. Would they be in uniform?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In uniform--just like they do all the other clubs, and you would have the vice stopping in just like they do the rest of the clubs, walking around, looking around, never sit down.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't there some special arrangement with reference to what they would be charged?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the policemen always paid the same price as news-men and their boys, which was 40 cents on beer, policemen, bellboys, hotel clerks and things like that and newsmen.
Mr. HUBERT. They all had a cut rate?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. They all had a cut rate.
Mr. HUBERT. That was true of members of the vice squad too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That included members of the vice squad. Of course, I never seen any members of the vice squad take anything to drink, any beer or anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned one particular member of the vice squad called Gilmore?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Mr. Gilmore.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about him?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Mr. Gilmore is a man that will, I believe and everybody else believes, and Jack was afraid of Mr. Gilmore--I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he was afraid of him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know he was afraid of him because he was nervous whenever Mr. Gilmore was in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you he was afraid of him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--he would show it.
Mr. HUBERT. How would he show it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. By--making sure that everything was perfect and if it was close to curfew then he would say all the glasses and bottles have to be off of the table by 1:15---12:15 week nights and 1:15 Saturday nights. If Mr. Gilmore was in the club at that time you would see Jack out in the audience hustling glasses and bottles off of the table, because he knew that if Mr. Gilmore saw anything or anybody drinking in there, he was subject to getting a 5-day suspension or a ten-day.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when Gilmore was in the club he enforced the rules more strictly than when Gilmore was not in the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Watch over it more strictly, which is something that most club owners do when there are vice squad members in the clubs.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, was the relationship between Ruby and Gilmore different from the relationship of Ruby and any other member of the vice squad?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; you see, the only time no; not any different, because if there was any other member of the vice squad in there, which Mr. Gilmore is the only one I know by name, is because he is the one that most people fear.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he has the reputation of being tougher than any of the other members of the vice squad?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I guess that's what it is. It's just something you pick up. You never saw him arrest anyone, you never saw him close anyone's club up----
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a captain or what was his rank, do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A lieutenant, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his first name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't know his first name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever tell you anything about him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he just said that some of the old time waitresses--we had one up there by the name of Alice and Jack and some other girl who was discussing Mr. Gilmore and they were discussing his reputation, and Alice mentioned the fact that Mr. Gilmore would arrest his mother if he caught her doing wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her last name--what is Alice's last name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Her name is Alice Alexander.
Mr. HUBERT. She was what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know anybody by the name of Alice Nichols?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I talked to her about twice on the telephone no, no; not Alice this was Mrs. Blackmon, I'm sorry. Alice Nichols?
Mr. HUBERT. Alice Reeves Nichols.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I heard the name.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never met her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have never met her.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never talked to her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to get to the events and your activities, and the activities of others that you observed during the period just preceding the assassination of President Kennedy and for a few days thereafter. Now, first of all, did your routine follow the usual pattern that you have already described until the date of the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you can think of that was not ordinary during that period of time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That I can think of that was not ordinary?
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Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No everything was as usual.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Jack about the forthcoming visit of the President?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; we didn't discuss the visit of the President. As a matter of fact, I got behind on the date. I was planning on being downtown that day--that morning myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, didn't you ask Jack to adjust your schedule in such a way that you could go and see the parade and see the President pass by?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, my schedule of the President was already passed by when I got downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. I'm talking about prior to the time to November 22---a day or two before, didn't you discuss with Jack about going to see the parade?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I think I mentioned it to somebody that I would be over to see the parade.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you talk to Jack about it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know for sure it could have been Jack now.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any comment that he made about going to see the parade?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be interested in the President's visit?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I remember there was something about a conversation going on between him and someone that--I was passing by on the way to the bus--and it was that he seemed delighted that the President was coming to Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you overheard Jack say something to someone to the effect that he was glad or delighted that the President was coming to Dallas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long before the assassination you heard Jack say that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't--sure don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any special plans being made in the club in connection with the President's visit?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose you start off with your activities on the night before the President was shot, say the 21st did you go home at the usual time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the usual time.
Mr. HUBERT. Which is to say--1 o'clock?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. 1 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. And your time for reporting would have been when?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. My time for working was 1 o'clock the next day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you report at 1?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I was there a little before 1.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before 1?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you could say--let's see, I stopped and got a haircut and I must have been on the 12 o'clock bus from out where I live.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get up that day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was pretty early, I think I must have gotten up about 10 o'clock or 9:30---about 9 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you went to get a haircut?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I went to get a haircut.
Mr. HUBERT. And that's all you did between the time you got up and the time you got to the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's all I did.
Mr. HUBERT. And you got to the club about what time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It must have been about 12:15 12:20, or something like that, because when I got downtown I could see portions of the parade, you know, like I got off of the bus at Main and Field--at Main and Akard, I'm sorry, which is the usual stop, I always get off at Main and Akard, and further down you could see portions of the parade, but I felt that I had missed the parade I didn't realize that I had missed the parade until I was in the barber shop and thought, well, maybe I'll get downtown, I said to myself, and I will
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see some portion of it, but when I got downtown I was surprised to see that the parade had already moved forward--further down.
Mr. HUBERT. Just for the record, what barber shop did you go to?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Moore's Barber Shop on Scyene Road. I got to the club----
Mr. HUBERT. Now, before you get to that, wasn't it your job to see that the beer was kept on ice?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And how often did you check that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Every day.
Mr. HUBERT. And when did you do it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the first thing I did.
Mr. HUBERT. When you came in in the morning?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. When I came in in the afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have any special days to do it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I did it every day.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the delivery of the beer?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Thursdays.
Mr. HUBERT. Only once a week?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Once a week.
Mr. HUBERT. And what time did that take place?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Anywhere from 11 on--Thursday. It was usually between 11 and 3 o'clock because I would usually leave the club at 3 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, so you got to the Carousel about what time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 12:15, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. You had a key to get in, of course?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--I went in and I had to use the restroom, and so I went to the restroom and then I heard a lot of sirens and I listened to the sirens for a second or two and they got louder and they got more sirens, so I decided I would go get my transistor and see what was going on, and that's when I heard that there had been a shooting at the President or something like that. Somebody had tried to assassinate the President, or something, and then I run in and I woke Larry up--Larry was staying there.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Larry?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Larry Crafard.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he staying?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was sleeping in a little room there.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you went and woke him up?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I woke him up.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you do it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well--I shook him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the door of his room closed or not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the door of his room was--no, it wasn't closed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had Larry been there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. How long had he been there?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had been there since October, since the last of the State Fair.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know anything no more than that he was working out at tire State Fair somewhere and the first time I saw him is when Jack bought a little something a little shack or a little house or something that was built at the State Fair by Olin Lumber Company, I think it was, and 1 don't know who it was--the company that bought it, and Jack bought the lumber from Olin Lumber Company because it hadn't been paid for and he had Howard and Larry to tear it down and bring it to the club, and that's when I met Larry is when he and Howard delivered the lumber to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you that Larry was going to work there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he told me there was a couple of kids to help haul the lumber, but there was only Larry and when I talked to him over the phone, I called him on the phone and told him they was there with the lumber and after they finished, he told me to give Larry something and let him get a shower
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or something and he would be down to talk to him later. We had a shower at the club.
So, he went in and showered and this and that, and that night Jack asked me did we still have the little cot around there that Larry was going to stay at the club a while--he didn't have anywhere to live, and I told him, "Yes," and showed Larry where he could find if and he was there ever since.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what Larry was supposed to do around the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Larry was supposed to do a little cleaning and things of that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that. supposed to be to relieve you of the cleaning job?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was supposed to be to help me out with the cleaning job.
Mr. HUBERT. When was Larry supposed to do that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Whenever he got up or whenever he had time.
Mr. HUBERT. Usually, what did he do?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually he read books.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean, is, when you got there at your usual time, had he begun to clean up?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually he had begun to clean up.
Mr. HUBERT. He hadn't finished though?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't it your custom, or duty to wake him up every morning?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't call him every morning to wake him up?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No. If he was asleep I didn't even bother him. Usually he was awake, but there was sometimes that he was asleep and I didn't bother him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he get paid?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That, I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him take any money out of the cash register?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I had given him money out of the cash register.
Mr. HUBERT. How much?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, a few bucks to eat off of. If he asked me for a couple of dollars, I would give it to him and let him sign a slip for it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that authorized by Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He had told you to do so?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He told me to do so.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he given you any limit as to how much it would be?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he hadn't given me any limit.
Mr. HUBERT. What would you do, make a slip to record it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Make a slip to record it.
Mr. HUBERT. And it amounted to what--to $2 or $3 a day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that from $2 to $3--a couple of bucks a day.
Mr. HUBERT. You never gave him a regular salary?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn't myself.
Mr. HUBERT. But what you know about it is--it never was over $2 or $3 a day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay around the club at night when the shows were on?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He stayed there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he supposed to do then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Go to sleep if he wanted to.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he take par, t in any of the operation of the club? Like handling the lights, for example?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He did handle the lights some. I tried to teach him how to work the lights, but he never did learn too well.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any other things around the club at night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than clean up, and that's all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he eat there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He usually went out to eat--there was no food there. Well,
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he did--I'll take it back--Jack did bring him some eggs and things for him to fix his breakfast if he wanted to.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there a stove to do that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether he did cook there much?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About twice I noticed that he did.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that he didn't cook?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Now from the time you got there say, around midday until you left at 1 o'clock in the morning, the next morning, would you say that Larry was there most of the time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was there most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get to be friendly with him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Friendly--well, not exactly. Friendly, but----
Mr. HUBERT. You got along all right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. We got along all right.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no friction between you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, most of the time when you got there he had already been awake and at least begun to clean up, although most of the time he had not finished and you and he finished together?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So, in.a sense, he was helping you out?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So you got to the club about 11:20 and you heard the sirens blowing and you turned on your transistor radio and you heard about the President being shot, and I think you said you went and woke Larry up?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I didn't finish that. I woke Larry up and I--he sat up and I went back out of the room and I went back to what I was doing because it was necessary--absolutely necessary.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were on the toilet, is that right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; and then I heard further reports and I got up again and I went and told Larry the President had been shot.
Mr. HUBERT. The first time you went there you didn't tell him about the President being shot?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I told him somebody shot at the President, and Larry--I noticed the couple of times that I had woke him up he always went back to sleep and he did the same thing this time, but when I told him that the President had been shot, he jumped straight up--he got up immediately and put his clothes on.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what interval of time elapsed between the first time you woke him up and then went back to the toilet and the second time when you came back and told him the President had been shot?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know, it couldn't have been longer than a couple of minutes--I don't think.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What did you all do then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. We just walked around and listened to the radio, shaking our heads and waiting on more reports.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a television in the place?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; we had a television--I turned the television on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you all listen to both the television and the radio?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Both the television and the radio--there wasn't too much on the TV, so you could get more on the radio.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear from Jack, after the shooting of the President?
Mr. ARMSTONG. Oh, I would say about 15 or 20 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. After you first heard about it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. After I first heard about it.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear from him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. On the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just said, "Did you hear?" and I said, "Yes." He said, "Ain't it terrible?" "It's a shame." Just like that--real sadlike.
Mr. HUBERT. That was before the President had died?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was before the President had died.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he was calling from?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I assumed he was calling from the Morning News.
Mr. HUBERT. Why do you assume that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because I could always tell when he called from the Morning News.
Mr. HUBERT. Why--because of what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, usually on Saturday at the time he was at the Morning News--that was on a Saturday, wasn't it?
Mr. HUBERT. No; it was on Friday.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was on Friday--well, Friday or Saturday is the same as-the Saturday ads----
Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it your testimony then that he was usually at the Morning News on both Friday and Saturday attending to the ads for the week?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any other thing that would make you believe he was there at the Morning News, such as some background noises that would be peculiar to a newspaper?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well--there was this typewriter that I always hear when he called from down there, and I only heard it at this time about four clicks of it.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean on the time he called you about 20 minutes after the President had been shot?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard four clicks?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. On the typewriter that I usually hear it on.
Mr. HUBERT. Usually, you would hear a big clatter of it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. At this time you heard about four clicks and no more?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And no more.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you place any particular significance to that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you now?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I was curious why you mentioned that fact then.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I mentioned it to verify the reason why I thought he was at the Morning News. He did not tell me he was at the Morning News.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. But I assumed that he was at the Morning News.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, he asked you if you had heard and you told him yes and he said, "Wasn't it terrible," and so forth?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What else did he say?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he said if anything happens we are going to close the club up.
Mr. HUBERT. "If anything happens," I suppose you mean that he was inferring, or you thought he was, that if the President would die?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say so in so many words?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He just said, "If anything happens."
Mr. ARMSTRONG. "We are going to close the club."
Mr. HUBERT. Any other conversation?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he said, "I'll see you in about 30 minutes," and I would say he was there in about 5 minutes after they announced that the President was dead.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't recall what time it was.
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Mr. HUBERT. In any case, within 5 minutes after you heard that the President was dead, Jack came in?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He came in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he know then that the President was dead?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He knew.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say so?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was---he didn't say anything--he just got on the telephone. No, he said something about, "It's a shame." He kept saying, "It's a shame," like that and he got on the telephone and he was crying.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he was speaking to on the telephone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he spoke to his sister, he spoke to---he made some long distance phone calls, I think one to his brother Earl.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He made one because it was--I could tell--I could usually tell when he was usually talking to his brother Earl.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he speak to Earl very often?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, during that month of November he had spoken to him quite often about some business deal he was trying to get him to go into.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the nature of that business deal?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Twist boards, I think it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You overheard the conversation?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, on this particular day?
Mr. HUBERT. No, I mean on the previous occasions?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, some of them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you gather from what you heard Ruby say on the Dallas end of the line when he was talking to his brother Earl that he was trying to interest him in investing in the twist board invention?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no---not on this day. On the other days--he didn't say anything about the twist board this day.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand, I'm talking about the other day.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, usually, I knew he was going to talk to him, he would say, "I'm going to call Earl," and he would ask for Earl's phone number which was on a pad there by the phone. He would ask me or he would get it himself.
Mr. HUBERT. What was this twist-board business about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was trying to promote a twist board, trying to get it to go over like the hula hula or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he was trying to interest anyone else in that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know he sent some brochures and things like that to other people, but I don't recall who.
Mr. HUBERT. From what you were able to hear during those various conversations between Jack and Earl Ruby, during the month of November, was Earl interested?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, yes and no. You could say he was interested in--for hoping it would be a good deal for Jack's benefit, but I don't think he was too interested in investing any money but if he would have to, I believe he would.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you all that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In a way he did.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you mean "in a way"?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, in other words, he said that Earl might invest money.
Mr. HUBERT. So, your statement about whether Earl was interested or not is based upon two factors, I suppose, and correct me if I am wrong--was---one is that you could hear Jack's end of the conversation?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the other is that Ruby told you some things about it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And the net result was that Earl wasn't too interested in it, but might be for Jack's sake?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else did Jack call, do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he called Ralph Paul.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did you overhear that conversation?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I remember it was a short conversation but Jack said he wasgoing to close the club up and Ralph said he was not going to close this place up----
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he said that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because he told me later on he did.
Mr. HUBERT. But, at the moment all you could hear was Jack saying to Ralph Paul--he was going to close the place up?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack did say--he says, "You should close yours up too."
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't hear Paul's answer?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I did't hear his answer.
Mr. HUBERT. But later you understand from Paul that he told Jack he wasn't going to do so?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else did he call; do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't remember who else he called--he made five or six phone calls.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say he was crying----
Mr. AaMSTRONG. At two or three stages he was crying there.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean when speaking to people or otherwise?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. When using the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Only when speaking to people or when he was not speaking to people?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he cried when he was speaking to me, after he had got off the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you crying, too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack indicate why he was crying?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about how the death of the President would affect the business community of Dallas, and particularly the convention business here?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I'm the one that mentioned it first.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you say?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I said, "This will kill the business, conventionwise, and things probably will slow up quite a bit--drop off quite a bit." He said, "Yes; you've got a point." He said, "I think it will, too."
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn't angry at you for making that suggestion?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He agreed with you, in fact?
Mr. ARM STRONG. He agreed with me.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay from the time he first came in, which you say was 5 minutes after you knew--after it had been announced that the President had been killed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would say he stayed there an hour; approximately an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. And most of the time, you think, he was on the phone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Most of the time on the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he get any calls from anybody?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; he got some; the phone rang a couple of times, and also the pay phone rang a couple of times; some of the girls called him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you answer it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I answered the pay phone and he answered the business phone.
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you all tell the girls; what were they asking about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, they were just asking, "Did you hear the news?"
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them then that the clubs would be closed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not then.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you fix about what time Jack left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I can't.
Mr. HUBERT. You said it was about I hour after you heard of the death of the President, or 1 hour and 5 minutes, and if you think that estimate is wrong, say so---I mean anybody can be wrong in an estimate.
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; that's about right. He came in about 5 minutes after they announced the death of the President.
Mr. HUBERT. And he stayed about an hour?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And he stayed about an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. And made these various calls and then left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right. Now, what time was the death of the President; do you have that?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, suppose we assume it was approximately 1:30 p.m.
Mr.ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You would think, then, if that is so, he left about 2:35 p.m.?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to his leaving, then, did he give you any instructions or tell you what to do?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said that the club was going to be closed until Monday and not to mention it to anybody connected with the other clubs because he, himself, was pretty sure that they wouldn't close up; his competitors didn't get along-- they didn't get along.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why Monday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Why Monday?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn't tell me why Monday. He just said that the club would be closed and for me to call everyone.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention Monday that it would be closed Friday night, Saturday night, and Sunday night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said the club would be closed Friday and Saturday and Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why he was picking those 3 days?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. What other instructions did he give you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's all.
Mr. HUBERT. What about notifying the girls?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I notified them; yes; he gave me the instructions to notify them--all the acts and the waitresses.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you call Little Lynn--I think her name is Karen Bennett Carlin?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; she came down that night, I'm pretty sure. I think I couldn't get ahold of her.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you try to call her?
Mr. ARMSTONG. I tried.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn't reach her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I didn't reach her.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say she came down that night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That Friday night.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think, and Friday night the club was closed and she went back home.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don't know that of your own knowledge?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not to my own knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. But you are positive that you did not reach Karen--Little Lynn--Bennett to call her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sure I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know her husband, Bruce at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; he was up to the club quite often until----
Mr. HUBERT. Until what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was up to the club quite often after the assassination until I suggested that he didn't come around too often because of some business there; Little Lynn was always getting into something with the other girls, and she got him there to take up for her.
Mr. HUBERT. This occurred after the assassination when you were managing the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. And he was coming around, and you suggested not to comearound any more?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn't it a fact that that had happened before the assassination, also, and that Jack told him so, or the same thing?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I'm sure I'm not sure that Jack had told him, but I believe that Jack had told him, because he was coming there and he stopped.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, during the time that Jack came in at about 1:30 or so and stayed until about 2:30 or 2:35 or 2:40, was this man Larry Crafard there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He was with you at the time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby come back that day, or did you hear from him any more?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He came back that day.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--when he came back I was gone.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what time did you leave?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I left--I must have left about 4:30.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in the interval between the time when Jack left and the time you left, which was about 2 hours?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Wait a minute here; let's see; let me straighten a little some-thing out here because I am a little wrong here.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; that's what I want you to do.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I called the people I called everybody and told them we would be closed that night, Friday night, and Saturday--I called them we would be closed Saturday and Sunday. In other words, Jack said we would be closed tonight, possibly until Monday; in other words, Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Now, when I came down Saturday----
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's not get to Saturday yet.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. OK; I will straighten that out.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to get to that, but right now you want to change your testimony because your best recollection right now is to the effect that on Friday when you were talking with Jack it had not been decided how long the club would be closed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But only it would be closed Friday night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Friday night.
Mr. HUBERT. It might be closed the other nights, but no decision was made yet?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. That's your best recollection of it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the best recollection of it.
Mr. HUBERT. That is your recollection?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us just for the record as to why you got confused; have you any notion as to what made you get confused?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was getting confused on account of the dates. In other words, I was thinking that I didn't-- that the next time I would be at the club would be Sunday, after I hear about the slaying of Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that so?
Mr. ARMSTONG. Yes; I was thinking that would be my next appearance at the club. In other words, I am trying to think ahead, but then my next appearance at the club was Saturday, which I talked with Jack, because I recall Jack fired me that Saturday, but we'll get to that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we will get to that, but we want to keep the dates straight too, if we can, and the times, but let me say this to you: If you do make a mistake in time or date, please feel completely free to come back and correct it, be cause what we are looking for is the truth.
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the reason I'm not giving you any definite time, because like when I had my interview with Mr. Peggs, definitely---any definite time, and that was right after the assassination---just a few days after.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Anyway, the way we have left it is that you left at approximately 4:30, having called the girls and told them that the club would be closed that night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And I reached Little Lynn that day.
Mr. HUBERT. You did reach Little Lynn that day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That day, but the next Saturday, I didn't; the Saturday, I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. So you did call Little Lynn in Fort Worth; is that right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And told her that the club would be closed Friday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And told her that--what did you tell her with reference to Saturday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I said that we would be closed tonight, and I didn't say anything other than that.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, about 4:30 you left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I left.
Mr. HUBERT. To go home?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I go home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear from Ruby any more that night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn't hear from him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Larry Crafard at the club when you left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was there when I left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of the conversation between you and Larry after Ruby left about 2:30 on that Friday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. After he left about 2:30?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you said you and Larry were there between 2:30 and 4:30 when you left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. You see, Jack left and Larry was walking up and down the aisle there shaking his head and--well, he was doing nothing--I would just try to get up and try to finish cleaning up, which I did, and it didn't take too much because we had gone through the procedure of cleaning up while we was listening to the news, and that was from a Thursday night and we don't have that many people in there on Thursday night--Thursday night and Sunday night are bad nights.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you and Larry talk after Ruby left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I imagine we said a few words to each other; Larry went out and ate.
Mr. HUBERT. While you were there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he stay?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, he stayed about 20 minutes, I guess, and when he got back Jack came back in about 10 minutes later.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Pardon; I was still there.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you told me that you had not seen Jack any more that day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I'm still thinking that--I'm still thinking when I had not seen Jack on Friday--when I left, I left Jack and Larry in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, we have to revise this, because I want you to get your best recollection in here.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. You see, this is the reason why I know; I had some boards and some bricks to carry home, and I made a phone call to a brick company over on McKinney and told the fellow if he would bring my bricks over to my house he said, "Yes"--it was 25 bricks, these boards and bricks for me to build a corner shelf, and I had painted the boards in the club and I remember Jack asked me what was I going to do with those boards and I told him the layout
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of what I had planned on and he said it was very nice, and I wrapped them in newspaper and I left the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was at 4:30; is that the time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was about 4:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's get it straight; Jack left about an hour and 5 minutes after the time he first came in; right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left about 2 hours after that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you left approximately, as we have reconstructed it as we went along, about 4:30?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. But you said that Jack came in again before you left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Before I left; just a lithe before I left.
Mr. HUBERT. Which would have been about 4 you think, or 4:15?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was his condition at that time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Still in the same he wasn't crying any more, but he was still sad and speaking about the assassination and things of that nature and saying a few other things about the club and asked me had I contacted everyone, and I told him, "Yes."
Mr. HUBERT. What other things about the club was he talking about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, just about--there was certain things to cut out and certain lights to cut off and was the box unplugged; the things that I always take care of; he always asked about it later.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any phone calls?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time, during the second visit?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't recall any more.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him talking to Larry?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he did ask Larry about a certain phone number, someone's phone number that he had Larry to put down in a book.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whose phone number that was?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I sure don't--it was a business phone number--some business.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make a call?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't remember him making a call.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the business?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think it was the people that printed up the stationery--I'm not sure, but I think that's who he was calling.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't hear that call?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you left it was about 4:30?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left Ruby and Larry at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went home and went to bed--on about your business and didn't hear from Jack until the next day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, you never saw Larry afterward?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right. He left a key at the garage downstairs.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first find out about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About the----
Mr. HUBERT. About the key and Larry leaving it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, about 1 o'clock, I guess, I got down again about 1 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. That was on Saturday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. On Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I always stopped at the garage to see if there was any mail.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that where the mail was delivered?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's where the mail was delivered and Ben gave me the
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key. He said Larry had left it and left a note and just said thank Jack for everything, and that's all.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean a written note?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Ben, the man at the garage, told you that Larry had left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what time he left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said "Early this morning," that's all he said.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't give you any time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And he said that he had left the key and a written note?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Saying to thank Jack for everything?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That he was leaving?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the written note?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. With the key--just a little piece of paper--I think it was an envelope tore up or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do with it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I don't know--I guess I must have throwed it away because only thing on it was "Thank Jack." I read it to Jack on the phone and I guess I must have throwed it in the trash by the phone there.
Mr. HUBERT. And when you got upstairs, did you call Jack as usual?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He was at his house?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been about I or a little after?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 10 after, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find him then, his attitude, and so forth?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said when I told him about Larry, he said, "I guess he wanted to be with his people through all this."
Mr. HUBERT. He wanted to be through with what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said, "I guess he wanted to be with his people through this,"--you know--through the assassination. So, we didn't say anything else--he didn't say anything else except he said, "I'll see you later."
Mr. HUBERT. You say you read him the note?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And he told you to throw it away?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he didn't tell me to throw it away.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did do it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, the note is not in existence right now?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. As far as I know.
Mr. HUBERT. You actually looked at it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you read it in fact to Jack?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Give us your best recollection of precisely what the note said.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It just said, "Thanks, Jack, for everything."
Mr. HUBERT. Did It have a signature on it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it in his handwriting?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, it was in his handwriting.
Mr. HUBERT. You recognized his handwriting?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where Larry's people were at that time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack know?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn't know either.
Mr. HUBERT. You found out later, I think?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was a letter that he had received, which--pardon me--someone got it in this letter that I have the letter in my possession.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't have it, but the last I saw of the letter was when I showed it to one of the FBI men at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a letter received by Jack? Or written by Jack?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; a letter written to Larry.
Mr. HUBERT. To Larry?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. From some girl in some other city.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Did you send me this [presenting witness' letter of notice to depose to Counsel Hubert]?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you remember what city it was sent from?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, isn't it a fact that you forwarded two letters?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. One that Larry was writing himself.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; to a girl called Gayle.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, and one that he had received from her.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that letter opened?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was opened.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was still in the envelope?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you just gave that to the FBI people?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In Larry's belongings there in his room on a little table there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave any belongings behind?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He left some shirts, he left a pair of khakies, I think, or bluejeans---a pair of jeans.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any bags up in that room?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had one 1ittle bag, a sort of a little square bag with a little handle or two little handles like that [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. By the measurements you are making, it is a bag about 12 to 15 inches in length?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And about 6 or 8 inches in height?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About big enough to get a change of clothes in.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't have another bag, did he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this bag you are talking about made of leather or cloth?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was made of leather.
Mr. HUBERT. And all he left behind was just this one change of clothing and two letters?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you see, Jack had bought him a change of clothes, you see. Jack bought him a suit. I think he left what he had--his change of clothing, and carried the suit with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you find these two letters, one written to him and one written by him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In the room where he slept on a table there.
Mr. HUBERT. They wasn't in the wastepaper basket?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not that I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you pick those things up?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. When the FBI's were there.
Mr. HUBERT. Not before?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not before.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you didn't pick them up on Saturday at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--I didn't even go in that room on Saturday. As a matter of fact, I didn't even know he had anything there they were looking for something with his handwriting on it, for something possibly where he had gone and we started searching where he was staying and we found those letters.
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Mr. HUBERT. And that was on the first day you spoke to the FBI?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; this was not on the first day. We opened back up on a Monday, I think we spoke to the FBI-- one FBI that Monday, but later on, you know, there was some other ones--possibly the last part of the week.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was then that they were talking to you at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And they asked about Larry?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you all went and searched his room where he had been and they found the letters?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. You are sure that that's right, Mr. Armstrong?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I looked in the room myself. They was in the office, which has a door from his room to the office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you look in his room either on Saturday or Sunday, the 23d or 24th?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And when you looked in his room, it was when the FBI was interviewing you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I didn't even know Larry had left any belongings there until the FBI was asking me about it.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went into the room alone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, the door was open.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you came out and you showed them these things?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what date that was on?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I sure don't.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, as I understand it, a little after 1 on Saturday the 23d, you spoke to Ruby over the phone and told him about Larry?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did any other conversation take place between you on that telephone call?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. None?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what to do with reference to the club on Saturday night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say that he would be there soon or something of that sort?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said he would be there sometime "this afternoon."
Mr. HUBERT. Did you stay there until he came?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, I was there when he came.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he come?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't recall the exact time I don't think that Jack came in the club that day before it was late in the afternoon--I don't know the exact time, but it was somewhere around 6 or 7 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it still daylight or dark?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was still daylight.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any phone calls during the time you talked to Ruby on the phone until he came in?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was phone calls--something about was we going to be open--a few reservations came in, and I told them I didn't know whether we would be open tonight or not and to call back later, and there was a couple of girls called.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The girls was told, "I'll talk to you later."
Mr. HUBERT. So, Jack came in at approximately 6 o'clock, or at least before dark--but it was getting dark, right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. Describe his condition at that time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was still in a sad mood, you know, in a sorrowful mood, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he crying?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he wasn't crying this time.
Mr. HUBERT. You were in a sorrowful mood, too, I take it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that his mood and yours were about the same?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No---my sorrowful mood was sort of on the inside mostly, and his was in his face and in the way he was worried about the things. He seemed like to be more worried than ever."
Mr. HUBERT. Then, how--that is to say--what was he doing that gave you the impression that he was more worried than ever? You have told us he had a sad look on his face?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was--he just felt like it seemed like he was just disturbed over what had happened, you know, over the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you are telling us about the mental impression you formed, which is perfectly all right, but it would be helpful to us if you could give us facts upon which you base your opinion, you see? Now, you have given us one fact--he had a sad look on his face. If you could tell us the things that he said or did.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't recall anything that he said that day, no more than--he said the club was going to be closed and immediately I got on the phone and started to making phone calls.
Mr. HUBERT. To all the people who were concerned?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, to all the people.
Mr. HUBERT. And the object was to tell them not to come in that night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--I know now--and it was around 6 o'clock, because one of the girls was getting ready to come down to town, one of the waitresses. They had to be there at 7:30, so it was around 6:30--between 6 and 6:30 when I was making the phone calls.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you tried to call Karen Bennett Carlin then, but you couldn't reach her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Couldn't reach her, and I believe Jack said, "I will call her later."
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he undertook to call her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He told me to keep trying and he would try to call her, too, and he left and went home.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did he leave?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He left about 7 o'clock, between 7 and 7:30.
Mr. HUBERT. So, he was there roughly between an hour and an hour and a half?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. You were making all these phone calls?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, and he asked me to stay there until about 8 o'clock, just in case any customers called and if they did, to tell them we would be closed until Monday, and he called me back and he said, "What time are you leaving?"
I said, "Well, 8 o'clock, I want to go home." He said, "Well, will you stay on to 10?" I said, "What should I stay here until 10 o'clock for?"
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he calling from, do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was calling from home, I'm pretty sure it was from home.
Mr. HUBERT. What gives you that impression?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, because he had said, "If anything come up, call me."
Mr. HUBERT. To call him at home?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just said, "Call me," so--he always just said, "Call me" when he was at home and if he was not at home, he would always give me a number.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he said, "If anything happens, call me," you knew that that meant he was at home, because that was the custom?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, and so we got into a discussion of whether I should stay there until 10 o'clock or should I leave at 8 o'clock, and I said, "Well, I'm
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leaving at 8 o'clock," and he said, "Well, just get on out of the club and don't come back no more." And slammed the phone down.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about a half hour after he left, wasn't it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, but I stayed there until 8 o'clock, like I said I was going to stay, and I closed the club up and went home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear from him any more that day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No
Mr. HUBERT. Now, on Sunday, did you go to the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I had planned on going to the club---I was planning on looking for another job Monday morning, because I said--"This is it." I had already made up my mind then I wasn't going back to work there, no matter what happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I just got fed up.
Mr. HUBERT. But this had happened, I think you said, 35 times or so?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What you mean to say is that the last time is the straw that broke the camel's back sort of thing?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had definitely made up your mind that this time you weren't going back?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that this time you were going to start looking for a job on Monday morning?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the club on Sunday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, after I heard about it--well, I was listening to the radio that morning--I was not looking at television.
Mr. HUBERT. You were home then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right; it was Sunday morning?
Mr. HUBERT. That's right.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. When I heard about the shooting of Oswald and they said it was a well-known nightclub owner, and so I got a phone call--no, then, it come on the radio that it was Jack Ruby and I got a phone call is when I found out it was on television.
Mr. HUBERT. Who called you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A friend of mine--William Morris. He used to help me down at the club some Saturday nights when we had a big convention in--he would come down and help me out at the bar.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what--he called you and told you it was Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I knowed it was Ruby--they said that on the radio.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, Morris called you and told you it was on television?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said, "Did you see it on television?" And I said, "No; I didn't see it on television." He said, "Well, turn the television on." And so I turned the television on and they rerun the shooting, and what I saw on the TV was a rerun.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And so---about--sometime during that day, I forget what time it was, I called Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was it actually, and where was it from?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. From home.
Mr. HUBERT. That's a long-distance call, wasn't it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, there would be a record of that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, and he said
Mr. HUBERT. Let's do it this way---can you tell us how long after you saw the rerun that you called Paul?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't know whether it was before I went down to the club or after I went down to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you had called from your home?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--you see, when I went down to the club I wasn't gone but an hour.
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Mr. HUBERT. What did you go down to the club for?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I went down and fed the dogs, because I knew that they would be down there all day long without any food, and Clipper, I was crazy about and I didn't want him going hungry--that was the only two dogs there, so I fed the dogs--went down and fed the dogs and there was a newsman in front of the club and he tried to grab me when I came out.
Mr. HUBERT. The police did too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; just the newsman, but I didn't give him any statement or anything. I had called a friend of mine to bring me downtown and I went and got in the car and went on back home.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you are not sure whether you called Paul from the club or from the house?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I know I called him from home, but I don't know if it was before or after--it was around 12 o'clock, I imagine, when I got downtown--somewhere along in there, but when I did call Ralph, I said, "What are you going to do, open the club up?" He said, "Meet me down there Monday," and I did meet him down at the club Monday and. decided to keep the club open.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversations with anyone else during the course of Sunday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by the FBI Sunday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not interviewed until Monday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not until Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you when they interviewed you then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the club--Monday night.
Mr. HUBERT. The club was open then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. You were managing it for Ralph Paul?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I wasn't managing it--he managed it himself.
Mr. HUBERT. You met him there Monday--Paul?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it during the daytime?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was during the daytime.
Mr. HUBERT. He decided to keep on running it and asked you if you would just keep on with it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes---oh, yes; I did call Eva Grant.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Mrs. Grant.
Mr. HUBERT. What day was this?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. On Sunday--no, no--on Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not speak to her on Sunday?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I called her on Monday and told her Jack had fired me this was Monday morning. She said, "Well, nonsense, you know how Jack is. Go on down to the club. Mr. Ralph said he would meet me down there." And she said, "You know how my brother is, he was disturbed, he didn't know what he was doing anyway."
Mr. HUBERT. Paul had just simply told you to meet him at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He didn't know anything about the firing, but I told him at the club--Monday. Now, when I told him, he said, "How many times does that make?"
Mr. HUBERT. Who said that--Ralph Paul said that to you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I said, "I don't know, about a hundred, I guess."
Mr. HUBERT. How long did the club continue to operate?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It continued to operate until February, I think it was, the last of February--the last Friday in February.
Mr. HUBERT. Who decided to close it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The vice squad decided to close it.
Mr. HUBERT. For what reason?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I mean, the Liquor Control Board.
Mr. HUBERT. Because the license hadn't been paid?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because the license was in Jack's name and it was obvious he had violated those liquor licenses when he shot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen anybody at the club that looked like Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Oswald himself in the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell anybody that you had?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did you ever tell Larry Crafard that you had?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Billy DeMur?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was an M.C.
Mr. HUBERT. He also had a memory act, didn't he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, he did.
Mr. HUBERT. You have heard the story, haven't you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I have heard the story.
Mr. HUBERT. That he said he had seen Oswald in the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's what he told me---he said he thought that he saw somebody that could have been Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he tell you that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That was later--he said--he was walking around every night saying that the newspaper misunderstood what he had said. He said he definitely did not state the statement that they had in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is possible that you told Larry Crafard that you had seen him, that you thought you had seen somebody that looked like Oswald in the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, it isn't possible---no.
Mr. HUBERT. We have been going for 3 hours, and let's adjourn for lunch.
(At this point the proceedings in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong were recessed for lunch and resumed at 1:35 p.m. on the same date, April 14, 1964, as follows:)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Armstrong, you understand that we are continuing the deposition which we started this morning, and which we adjourned at about noon, and you understand that we are continuing it under the same oath and conditions upon which it was begun. You understand further that you are under the same oath you took this morning at the very beginning of the deposition?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider yourself to be under that same oath?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me clarify one point before I go further--with reference to the gun or pistol that you have already testified about, can you give us a description of it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let's see it was not a large gun, a small barrel on it, I guess you would call it a snub nose.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice you were holding your fingers apart there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And would you say you were holding them about 5 inches apart?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 5 inches, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. And that's the whole length of the gun from one tip to the other?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I would say so.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a revolver?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I think it was a revolver.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what kind of barrel it had on it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it had a little short barrel.
Mr. HUBERT. But I mean, what color was it; black, blue, steel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, It was--I don't remember--I only saw the gun, you know, in sight--you know I saw the bag a jillion times, but the gun only a couple of times, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of handle did it have on it; do you remember?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think it had a brown handle on it.
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Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Ruby have a holster for that gun?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I never saw it with one---- I never saw a holster.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, by a holster, I am including both types of holsters, one that is worn on the belt around the hip and one that is worn slung around the shoulders and the gun is usually in the armpit, you know what I mean?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw either type?
Mr. ARMSTRONG No.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, as I understood your testimony, you never saw him actually carry it on his person at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Either in his pocket or stuck in his bolt or otherwise?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whose gun that was?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I assumed it was his gun.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear any talk about whose gun it was?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he asked me where is my gun--the few times he came in and left it in the kitchen and asked me about it and I would say, "You left it in the kitchen, or some place like that."
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Turning to another subject--did you ever observe any particular interest on the part of Ruby with reference to police or police work?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Any particular part or effort?
Mr. HUBERT. Any particular interest on his part in police or police work--generally?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever in your presence express any views toward the police good or bad?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, the only views he ever spoke was good views.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an example?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, just that he didn't like to hear anyone knocking the police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear anyone knock the police department in his presence?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no, not direct--saying any bad things about the police department, but someone might have made a statement about the police department and he would not like it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, are you drawing on your imagination for that, or do you remember a specific instance in which he indicated that he did not like a person speaking in a bad way about the police?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I don't remember--in my mind I was trying to remember-to recall an incident, but I don't remember an incident, but there was an incident, I'm sure.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you, then, you definitely have the impression that he did not like people talking badly about the police?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember any specific instance which you can give us as an example of how you formed that impression?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But the impression, nevertheless, is in your mind?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard him discuss politics?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What opinion do you have concerning his interest in politics?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. His interest was that--I have heard him say--I have heard him say this, that anybody that was elected to hold a certain office must be responsible and capable of taking care of that position or they wouldn't be elected.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that is a specific instance that you remember?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when it was?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't remember when it was, but I remember that incident---I know who he was talking to---it was just a conversation and I happened to be there and to hear this party.
Mr. HUBERT. His view, generally, then, was that an elected official should be respected, is that the idea?
Mr. HUBERT. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Because they had been elected by the people?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss the President of the United States?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I'm sure I have everybody has, but I don't know of what nature or what subject, but I'm sure I heard him discuss the President.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Of course, you know that in this country as perhaps all over the world there are different views about government, and society normally called "isms" left or right or communisms or pro-Castro or anti-Castro or things of that sort?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard Ruby express himself in areas of thought such as those?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I know he threw a guy out of the club once for speaking as a Communist.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was just that this guy was heckling with the MC, Wally Weston, and he was coming on like he was a large portion of the Communist Party.
Mr. HUBERT. This man was--this patron?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; and Wally stepped off of the stage he made a remark that----
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "he" do you mean Wally?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; the customer made a remark that Wally could be--made a remark something similar to Wally could be a Communist or something like that too, in other words, "How do I know, you may be a Communist, too," or something like that. And, Wally stepped off of the stage and said, "Don't you call me a Communist," and he hit the guy and by the time he hit him Jack had him and was rushing him out the door, and told him, "Never come back in this club no more."
Mr. HUBERT. Did he push him out of the door?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He pushed him out of the door--he pushed him up against the wall and told him to go out the door.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn't hit him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn't hit him--Wally hit him.
Mr. HUBERT. And Jack hustled him out?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. When you go out the door, you are going to face a wall--in other words, the stairways come up like this [indicating], and the door is here and you've got to turn and go down the stairway and he shoved the guy right on into the wall.
Mr. HUBERT. Then he walked down the stairs?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Then he hurried down the stairs.
Mr. HUBERT. When was this incident?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was--I would say around the last of September or somewhere along in there or October.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix the date?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was toward the last part of the summer, I'm sure.
Mr. HUBERT. This man had been in the audience boasting, you say, that he was a big shot Communist?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, not a big shot, but he come on like he was a big portion of the Communist Party.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of looking man was he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was a young fellow with two other young couples from Arlington State College--I think that's where he said he was from.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, that's what they said--that's what they had said,
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Wally had asked them where they was from and he said he was a student at Arlington--I'm sure they said Arlington.
Mr. HUBERT. At where?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At Arlington College.
Mr. HUBERT. At Arlington State College?
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In Arlington, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say there were two couples?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; there were two men and a lady.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was one of the men who was going on like he was a big Communist?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. The other man and the lady were quiet?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. They were quiet and never said a thing and they apologized for his behavior after Jack had put this other guy out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they stay on?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; they said--Wally said, "Are you going to follow your friend?" And they said, "No; we couldn't say he was a friend of ours, and we just happened to be together." And then he dropped out.
Mr. HUBERT. How was this man dressed, do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he had a suit on.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man was he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, about 21 or 22, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. How roll was he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 5 feet 9, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What would be your estimate of his weight?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not much over 150 or 160.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a tie on?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; he had a tie on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a mustache?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No mustache.
Mr. HUBERT. What color was his hair?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think he had dark--I don't know whether it was black or dark brown, but it was dark.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like, if you could, for you to fix the time of that incident a bit closer than you have been able to do it so far.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no; I couldn't--the air conditioners were running.
Mr. HUBERT. The air conditioners were running?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And it was around the last of August--it wasn't too----well, if you could ask Wally he probably could give you a better date than I could when it was.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember the night of the week?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be helpful if you tried to estimate how long before the assassination of the President this all happened?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Crafard there then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he came after.
Mr. HUBERT. That was before Crafard came?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About how long was it before Crafard came?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know--well--it was sometime during the summer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Ruby about it afterwards?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear Ruby say anything about it afterwards?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; Wally and I discussed it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that discussion?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I was teasing him about his right hook.
Mr. HUBERT. His what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. His right hook.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he hit the guy pretty good?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. You see, Wally split his hand open and I got some band-aids and bandaged it up a little bit and helped him clean it off.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is Wally Weston now?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Where is he?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know--he was working at the Club Montemarte, but he's not there any more and I'm sure he's not in town now, so he's probably on the road some place.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any other people who were there that night, such as George Senator or Ralph Patti?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; things like that I don't try to remember.
Mr. HUBERT. When did Weston leave, do you remember?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, let's see, Wally left in September, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long had he been there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had been there since about June 1961--no, 1962, I'm sorry.
Mr. HUBERT. He was there about 15 months, but you thought that it was in the last month that he was there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; somewhere right around the last few months he was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, if he left in September--you thought earlier than that--it might be, this incident might have occurred in August, if that's the case, it wouldn't be then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, when he left there he still had that scar--it was still sort of open a little bit on his hand, and it hadn't been healed up--well, it had healed, but it was such a big gash and you could still see the print where they took the stitches out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have to go to the hospital?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He had some stitches taken in his hand.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything from your own knowledge, that is having heard or seen things at the club, which would throw light upon Ruby's attitude toward the race question, the Jewish question, and so forth?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever heard him fussing with his entertainers who cracked jokes about Jews?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he didn't like for the entertainers to crack any jokes about Jews or to tell any Jewish stories.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he told me himself.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he told you.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, you see, Wally and some of the other M.C.'s have some pretty good jokes about Negroes and Jack told me once----
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack asked me once did Wally's jokes offend men in any kind of way, and I told him "no". So, he said--well, there was something abort it he didn't like--the reason why he didn't like his M.C.'s to tell any Jewish jokes was something about the Jews have already had enough problems and enough troubles already or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he sensitive about being a Jew?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't think so--I wouldn't say that he was proud of being a Jew, I wouldn't say he was not proud, because I don't know. He never showed anything to give me any kind of reason to form an opinion about that.
Mr. HUBERT. When Larry Crafard left and you found out about it, what was your reaction?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I didn't have any reaction.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you think about it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing; just plumb nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, weren't you surprised that this man should go off like that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
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Mr. HUBERT. Why not--it was rather strange conduct just to pick up and leave?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I didn't give it any thought--he left the way he came. He came unexpectedly and he left unexpectedly. It didn't bother me one bit whether he stayed or whether he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you, prior to the shooting of Oswald, give any thought to the possibility that maybe this man Crafard was getting out of town for some reason?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know how he was getting out of town?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn't--I didn't know how he was leaving.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever found out?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn't ask him when I saw him at the trial.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about what conversation you--there was between you and Crafard at the trial of Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No Conversation at all. He did most of the talking.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what he said?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he didn't say anything, but he said something about--he was surprised when he heard about Jack--the shooting of Oswald, and Jack, and that the FBI had contacted him, and I just told him that I had found the letter from this girl Gayle and had given it to the FBI and that was about all there was--that was about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you where he had been?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he didn't tell me where he had been. He said he had a job in some kind of mine somewhere up in Missouri or wherever he was, and he left there to come back here to the trial.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you that he had come to Dallas for the purpose of attending the trial?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; for the purpose of testifying.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember where it was you spoke to him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In the county courthouse downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean just in the hallway?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Downstairs--just as you come in the door.
Mr. HUBERT. You only had one conversation with him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that afternoon I was on my way back after recess and he was on one side of the street and I was on the other side of the street and he saw me and he came across the street and he said, "You remember this suit?" It was the suit that Jack bought him, and I said, "Yes." And he said, "This is all I've got--that Jack bought it for me."
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only other time you spoke to him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the only time.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did the conversation last?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not longer than a few minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after Ruby shot Oswald, did you give any thought to the possibility that Crafard's sudden departure the way he went might be linked up with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You never have given any thought to that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; not at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting of Oswald, and now that you look back on it, can you tell us anything that indicated that he might have been thinking of doing it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That Jack might have been thinking of doing it?
Mr. HUBERT. You understand I don't mean that you knew prior to the shooting that he was going to do it, but now that you look back on those days.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I know what you mean.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you can remember?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That might throw some light on what he was thinking about in that regard?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't believe he was thinking about it until after he did it. The reason why I say that, because you've got to know Jack--he always
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did things on the spur of the moment, you know. He always blowed up just like that [snapping his fingers], if something disturbed him, he would always just crack up. He was charming one minute and, the next minute he was all riled up.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by the Dallas police concerning this matter?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; never.
Mr. HUBERT. Never?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by the district attorney?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or any of his staff?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you interviewed by Jack Ruby's attorneys?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You were subpenaed to go to the trial?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was subpenaed to go to the trial.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone ever talk to you about the nature of the testimony you were expected to give?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; the only someone I talked to is Belli. He came up to the club the first night, the second day he was in town, and he asked me what did I think of Jack Ruby, when I was letting him in the office, he hadn't gotten in the office good before he asked me that, and I told him, and he said "Okay," and nobody ever talked to me since then.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The same thing I told you--about him cracking up--he just--everything he did, he did it on impulse.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about that or did you volunteer that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he asked me he just popped up and asked me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he pop up and ask you, "What do you think about Jack Ruby?" Or, did he ask you "Does he pop up and flare up suddenly?"
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; here's the exact words he asked me, "Why do you think Jack shot Oswald?"
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you tell him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just that he did it on an impulse, is the only reason at all--just cracked up and shot the man.
Mr. HUBERT. But Ruby never carried a gun around on his person, did he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. He had a gun that day with him, though? Would that influence your thinking somewhat?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And from what I understand of your previous testimony, the that fact that he would have a gun on him would be unusual; wouldn't it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Coming in and out of the club, yes; but I don't know whether he carried it on him or not when he was not coming in and out of the club. In other words, I was stating that if he did carry a gun--when I saw him with a gun, it was always in a bag, never on him, but when he was away from the club---I don't know where he had this gun.
Mr. HUBERT. But your impression was that he didn't carry it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, when you found that he did carry it on the day he shot Oswald, didn't that rather surprise you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no; my wife asked me, "What was Jack doing with a gun?" And I said, "I don't know. He might have just had it in the car and didn't want to open the trunk because he had that money in there, probably, and just stuck it in his pocket and wasn't in his senses that he had been in all the time."
Mr. HUBERT. Your wife, in fact, was curious about the same things I'm asking you about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Why would she have been curious about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was because that she never knew that he carried one
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and she didn't like guns, so when it come to the question of a gun. she, by being a woman, and you know how women are about being curious, she asked the question, but she asked a whole lot of other questions about things she never knew.
Mr. HUBERT. So, your testimony is that when you found that Ruby had shot Oswald, you were not surprised that he was carrying a gun?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I wasn't surprised.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to any members of Ruby's family about the man?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About the gun?
Mr. HUEBRT. No; about Ruby's case.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not other than Mrs. Grant called me and talked to me and she would do most of the talking----this and that and it's always about the same thing and it just bugs me, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. You have only spoken to her by phone since Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I spoke to her in person. I have seen her at the club a couple of times. She has been up there and I have seen her down at the courthouse and I saw her a number of times up to the club after the club had been closed, down at the club trying to sell it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she ever talk about the case itself?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not to--not any more than any other sister would say when her brother was being locked up or committed a crime.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you were subpenaed, did you ever ask her or anybody what they were calling you for?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I didn't ask anyone.
Mr. HUBERT. And you just hung around the court during the entire time of the trial?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not the entire time of the trial; the last week of the trial--Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.
Mr. HUBERT. Those were the only 3 days you were there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just those 3 days.
Mr. HUBERT. You received your subpena after the trial began?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were there for 3 days?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three days.
Mr. HUBERT. The trial ended on Saturday, I think?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who excused you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Phil Burleson.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just said--I asked him the second day---I ask him, I said "Well, listen, when are you going to use me, because I've got a job and these people are not going to hold off---they are going to hire somebody else."
And he said, "We are going to put you on tomorrow, in fact we will get to you tomorrow," and Belli changed his mind about using me on account of the record I have.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find that out?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Phil Burleson came out that afternoon and told me and I kept asking him---no, that was after the judge had recessed for that day I asked him, I said, "Listen, I've got to go to work tomorrow," and he says "Well, go ahead, Belli is not going to use you on account of your record," and so, to my surprise I lost my ob by not being able to work those 3 days.
Mr. HUEBRT. Who were you employed by then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I had just started with Yardell Construction Co., they build houses---homes.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than the time you spoke to Belli at the club and he asked you what you thought about Jack or why he killed him and you told him, did you ever speak to Belli or anybody else about what your testimony would be about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; never.
Mr. HUBERT. So, that as far as you know, they were going to question you about your opinion about Jack?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that's what I thought.
Mr. HUBERT. And then, Burleson told you the reason they couldn't use you was because of your record?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In the paper?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess you saw pictures on TV and some of the famous pictures that were published at the time he got shot?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he bear any resemblance to that man that had the right with Wally Weston?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; this gentleman that had the right with Wally Weston was sort of a young loudmouth, a smart alec--he had kind of a full face--a handsome fellow.
Mr. HUBERT. You are willing to state that it was not the man whom you have come to know through pictures as Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you would be positive about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Positive.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked for a man by the name of Roland Davis one time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Roland Davis?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think he was connected someway with the El Rancho Hotel.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked there in 1961?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that was right after I got out--I have forgotten about that--right after I got back.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I was a night clerk at the motel.
Mr. HUBERT. Who hired you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Mr. Davis.
Mr. HUBERT. Does Mr. Davis have other lines besides running the motel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he engaged in selling--in dealing with Jeeps?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I never saw any Jeeps. The only cars I saw he would own was a Cadillac and a station wagon that had "El Rancho" on the side of his station wagon.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Ruby was ever involved in trading in automobiles with Jeeps?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You never heard that at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just could get a car, from what I gather.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He just could get a car from what I get.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I wasn't thinking of his buying Jeeps for his own use, but trading in them. That is to say, as a business.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Nancy Jo Mooney?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nancy Jo Mooney; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you know one by the name of Betty MacDonald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of a girl who had worked at the Carousel as either a waitress' or a stripper who committed suicide about the middle of February of this year?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. By hanging herself in jail?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And she was arrested.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard anything about that?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And any of those names--Betty MacDonald or Nancy Jo Mooney mean nothing to you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was a girl named Nancy who worked at the club for a few nights or a few weeks--I don't recall. There were so many girls came there some of them I don't even remember their names, but I don't know whether it was Jo Mooney or what her last name was---as a matter of fact, I don't even recall how she looked, but I remember writing the name Nancy as a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they have a Polaroid camera at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it used for?
Mr. ARMSTONG. To make pictures of the twisting, customers doing the twist on the stage, which the M.C. would use to make a joke with them--and give the customers the picture.
Mr. HUBERT. Who operated that camera?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry Crafard do so also?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. One Sunday night, I think he did--I remember showing him how to operate it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were those the only pictures that were allowed to be taken in there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of any other photographer?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well--there was----
Mr. HUBERT. Who would come in and take pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was this magazine that came in to make some shots, but they required--that was for the magazine article did on the Carousel Club, which, anybody that appeared in the picture that was a customer signed a release on that picture, or if they did not sign a release on the picture, it couldn't be used.
Mr. HUBERT. When did that take place?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That took place sometime between the last of October and the first of November. Larry was there--- he came there the last of October--it must have been the first of November.
Mr. HUBERT. Must have been around the. first of November--did he stay just 1 night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; 1 week.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the man's name, do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Offhand, I can't recall his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his name Rocco?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Rocco; that's right.
Mr. HUBERT. And he took a series of pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He took a series of pictures.
Mr. HUBERT. He stayed about a week and then left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. But other than that, there were no pictures taken?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no other pictures.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Jimmy Rhodes?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He's a photographer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come around?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he take pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Of the girls--usually at his studio. If he made any at the club, it was not during business. It was all right for anybody--there was lots of pictures made, you know, like during the day, if the girls wanted to come up and pose for the photographers and things like that, that was okay, but when I said no other pictures were made in the club, I was speaking of during business.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was no commercial photographer there who would take the pictures of the patrons and sell them to them; is that right?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But anybody could take pictures if they wanted to?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, if they come in after I get there in the daytime and tell me they would be the,re to make pictures.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, during the shows?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; anybody couldn't take pictures, if we saw anyone with a camera we would take it away from them--they had to check them.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was prohibited to take picture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. They was prohibited from taking pictures.
Mr. HUBERT. And nobody you knew of could take pictures except Jimmy Rhodes and Rocco and of course you, with your Polaroid?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right, but Jimmy Rhodes could not take pictures during business. In other words, when we, had customers in the house and there was a show going on, no one could take any pictures but Rocco is the only one I know that made pictures, besides myself, when there was a show going on and we had customers in the club. I'm speaking of before this assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. Did you know Officer Tippit, the man that was shot by Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said that he knew Officer Tippit, but from what I gather later on--Mrs. Grant told me it was a different Officer Tippit that he knew. In other words, there was two officers that had the name of Tippit, from what I gather, and Jack said when the news was coming over the radio about the policeman being shot, that it was Officer Tippit; Jack jumped straight up and said, "I know him--I know him." Just like that.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his reaction to the shooting of Tippit?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he said--he was in a sort of--he said, "Isn't it a shame?" You know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be as disturbed about the shooting of Tippit as he was about the shooting of the President?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he was already disturbed and he didn't show to be any more disturbed over that than he already were.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know about a girl named Gloria?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was a girl named Gloria that worked up there---I can't recall how she looked, but I remember the name Gloria.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you remember her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. By the name.
Mr. HUBERT. was doing
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a waitress--I don't know whether she did any dancing or not on the amateurs, but I know that there was a girl by the name of Gloria.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she with Ruby, did she date him, or what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know of--it wasn't one of the girls that I hired, so he must have brought her in.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did she stay there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not long.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, how many days?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I couldn't say--a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, a month--I don't know. It couldn't have been over a month though, because the girls that stayed there usually stayed there a month or 2 months--I usually remember them quite well.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn't there some girl that was going with Jack during the last 2 or 3 days before the President was shot?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a girl by the name of Joyce Lee McDonald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you know about her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She is a striper. Her name is--her stage name is Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was at the club.
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Mr. HUBERT. During what period?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, during the period of---I would say 2 months before the assassination through the end of the year. She left about the third week in January, I would say, approximately 3 weeks she worked during 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. She was a stripper, was she?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a stripper.
Mr. HUBERT. You have heard that Jack was supposed to have been in the B & B Care with some girl either before the President was shot, the night before or the night after, haven't you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, I heard that.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, I think you were asked about that by the FBI?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know--I don't know whether I was or not. Somebody asked me about it--yes, I'm pretty sure it must have been the FBI.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn't you identify the girl as being Joyce McDonald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I don't recall--no, I wouldn't have---I wouldn't have identified the girl as being Joyce McDonald, because I wouldn't have had any way of knowing who it was unless they described her to me, and as I said, it could have been Joyce.
Mr. HUBERT. You remember a girl who worked about 5 or 6 nights at the Carousel Club and whom Ruby had token home after closing hours on each of the nights she works?
This was a girl that you tried to locate after Oswald was shot to help you run the club?
Do you remember looking for such a girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, that was the lady--oh---I don't recall her name now--- "Duckie" or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that lady, in any case?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, all I know is that Jack had told me she had some knowledge of club running and that she was very smart and sharp and when I had went to see him, he had suggested that if I--he said----
Mr. HUBERT. You mean when you went to see him in jail?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, he said, "I don't want to be involved with the club any more, but if you want to do it, you can contact this lady." He give me her name---it was "Duckie" or something like that, to come down and give you a hand, because she knows something about operating a club and you can talk to Ralph about it.
Mr. HUBERT. And you tried to find that girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I tried to contact her and I didn't have any luck and told Ralph about it and he said "forget it."
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that girl you remember as being the girl who had been around the club four or five or six time; isn't that correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that Jack used to take home at night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I don't mean to his house, but he did--he left with her, at any rate?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know whether he left with her or not because I leave before he does.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you remember making the statement to the FBI to the effect you knew of one girl there that worked for 5 or 6 nights, it was the same girl you looked for later, and that Ruby had taken her home after closing hours on each of the nights she had worked there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you went to see Jack in the jail?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times did you go to see him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, five or six, maybe seven times.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone with him all the time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; there was always a policeman standing there. A guard.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk about his difficulties?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he talk about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He talked mostly about the dogs and----
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about Sheba?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just that see that Sheba don't eat too much because she will get too fat.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say about leaving Sheba in the automobile that Sunday when Oswald was shot?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He didn't say--he didn't mention that to me. The first time I went to see him I asked him where were Sheba and he told me he had left her in the automobile and later on, so he told me, to contact the pound, to see if the pound had Sheba, and. would they release her, so I called the pound and the pound said that they had her, and Joy Dale went out and picked her up and brought her to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the McDonald girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the McDonald girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell Jack about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you how he got in the basement?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he never discussed the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you about having sent a money telegram to Karen Bennett that morning?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He told me that.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He said he had sent--that Little Lynn owed him $20 or $25, whatever it was, he sent her, plus some more money that she had already drawed that was not on the record, before they paid the payroll, and deduct it from her salary.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you the circumstances under which he had sent her money?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you he sent it by telegram?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He didn't tell me he sent it by telegram--no; he didn't tell me, but Little Lynn told me.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Little Lynn tell you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She just said that Jack had sent her the money. You see, I asked her first how much money had she drew and she told me and she also told me that Jack had sent her about $25, I think it was, by telegram.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you why she needed the money by wire?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; she didn't tell me why.
Mr. HUBERT. Her pay wasn't due until Sunday night, isn't that right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Until Sunday night, which we was closed, they didn't get paid Sunday night.
Mr. HUBERT. They got paid Monday night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think it was Tuesday before they got paid.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was then that you deducted from Little Lynn's pay the amount that had been advanced to her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen Jack yet?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, I saw Jack on Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn't mention to you that the money had been sent to her by telegram?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He--yes, he said that he sent the money--he said, "I sent Little Lynn $25"---he said, "I sent Little Lynn $25." He did't tell me about telegram.
Mr. HUBERT. He never discussed with you at all how he got into the jail house?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you about, or did you know that he could go to the police department and find his way about because he knew a lot of people over there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he never talked to me about that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that to be a fact?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That he could do that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. On these 8 or 10 visits that you made to Jack, he never had discussed with you one single aspect of the killing of Oswald, is that right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, never did.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of your visits, generally, then?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, just, I guess to see how he was doing, to say, "Hello" and to send him messages that the girls had sent him and carry his mail down there if he had any addressed to him personally.
Mr. HUBERT. How would you handle the mail?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I Would give it to Mr. Decker.
Mr. HUBERT. The sheriff first?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. To the sheriff.
Mr. HUBERT. Has anybody given you any money other than what you have earned?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have had your regular salary all the time that you worked for the Carousel until it closed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it more or less than you were receiving before?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was a little more.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was $60.
Mr. HUBERT. Instead of $45?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that money, did you receive any money from Ralph Paul or any of the brothers and sisters of Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or, from any other source?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no more than tips, you know, like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, I understand that, but I mean no other sums of money in excess of $5?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Pardon?
Mr. HUBERT. No other sums of money in excess of $5?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. $5?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let's put it this way--you received your salary and you received tips?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any single tip that was over $5 at any time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, yes; they had single tips--I always have. Certain customers come in lots of times and give me $6 or $8 and sometimes $10.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you say that $10 was the highest?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Ten was about the highest.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven't received by way of tips any sum, say, more than about $10?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, that was 1963 or 1962?
Mr. HUBERT. No, I'm not talking about that far back.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--you mean after the assassination?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say you are having a hard time now, is that right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Very hard.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no money saved?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. There was--it's gone, you know, a few bucks that I had saved. In fact, I have been paying bills.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was that money?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That I had saved?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it amount to about a couple of hundred dollars, I guess.
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Mr. HUBERT. You had it in cash?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In cash.
Mr. HUBERT. And other than that, you didn't have any money anywhere?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I didn't have any money.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't have any money in any way--in a bank, I mean?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No more than--other than $90 I received from income tax.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean a refund?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A refund. The reason why it was so hard is because my wife, she lost her job, the business she worked for, they went out of business just a little bit before the Carousel closed up.
Mr. HUBERT. This is off the record.
(Discussion off the record. At this point Counsel Hubert marked exhibits as hereinafter shown.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have marked these exhibits as follows: Exhibits 5300 A-F, inclusive; 5301 A-E, inclusive; 5302; 5303 A-M, 5304 A-B, inclusive; 5304 A-S, inclusive; 5306 A-B, and 5307-A. Now, I show you a group of pictures which I' have marked for identification, "Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, as Exhibit 5300-A, -B, -C, -D, -E, and -F, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong." And I have signed my name on each one of them for identification, there being six pictures altogether. I should like you now to look at those six pictures after which I wish to ask you some questions regarding them.
Now, I ask you whether you recognize what place is in the background of these pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
(Examining pictures referred to.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, state what it is?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. One of them is----
Mr. HUBERT. No; the place that's in the background--that's a picture of what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let me see that's the picture of the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Exhibit 5300-A?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that true also of Exhibit 5300-B?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are four others, Exhibits 5300--C, --D, --E, and --F. Is the background of those pictures different from the background of Exhibits 5300-A and 5300-B?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the background of Exhibits 5300, --C, --D, --E, and --F?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It's the background of the Colony Club and the Empire Cleaners.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that nearby the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, on all of these pictures in series Exhibits 5300, there is a man, is there not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is that man?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in all of these pictures, there are two girls; is that right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. One of them has blonde hair and seems to be dressed in black, has a black sweater, apparently, and black pants visible in some of the picture; do you know who she is?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her full name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Coleman, I think it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there is a second girl in there who seems to be dressed in a dress with horizontal stripes in the top part of the dress and vertical stripes in the bottom part of the dress, a blond-haired girl, do you know who she is?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. That is Alice Alexander.
Mr. HUBERT. Alice Alexander?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--Alice Alexander.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let's turn first to Kathy Kay and let me ask you what you know about her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing; but she was a stripper and she was there when I came here.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the time when these pictures were token?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; that's the first time I ever saw them.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you believe that Kathy Kay was a stripper when you first went to the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And she was there all the way through the time you were there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was there all except for the time she left, for about maybe 3 weeks or maybe a month, and she came back.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, she was there at the time Oswald was killed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; but not after that.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean she stopped after that time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right--she stopped.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the other girl whom you have identified as Alice Alexander?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Alice Alexander--she was there when I got there and she quit, and she and Jack would always--they would right frequently and she would come back, and she was there when--during the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, she was there when you first went to work in May 1962?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. What did she do at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. She was not a stripper?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And she and Jack would right, you say?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A difference of opinion.
Mr. HUBERT. But they never got to hitting one another?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And, she would quit sometime?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But she was there at the time of the assassination of the President and of Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long had she been there, dating back from the assassination of the President and of Oswald, and from the last time she had quit?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, it's hard to say----
Mr. HUBERT. A month or so?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She had been back longer than that, I'm sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she quit once or more than once?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She quit three or four times--I would say--about four times, and was back in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's take the last time she quit, when did she quit the last time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The last time was sometime during the summer.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did she stay away?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About a month, I guess. She never was away no more than a month.
Mr. HUBERT. And do you remember about the time she came back?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would have been more than 2 months before the President was killed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I'm pretty sure it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would be more than 3 months?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know--I couldn't say.
Mr. HUBERT. You are sure it would be more than 2 months but you are not sure it would be as long as 3 months?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. As I say, if she had been working as a waitress all the time, I would know, but a lot of times--half the time she was working as a cocktail girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what is the difference between a cocktail girl and a stripper?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well,--in other words, a cigarette girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, a cigarette girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She would have the cigarettes--sell the cigarettes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she dress like she was dressed in the pictures that are marked Exhibits 5300-A through 5300-E when she sold cigarettes?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the way she dressed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She would be dressed in a dress. She was selling cigarettes then.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if there was anything between Ruby and her of a sexual nature?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Is she married?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she married to; do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She has been married--but she was--I don't know her husband's name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever know her by the name of Fillmore?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a girl by the name of Grace Fillmore?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or Gloria Fillmore?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know any such person as Gloria Fillmore?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened to this girl called Alice Alexander after the assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She stopped for a while and then she came back later on.
Mr. HUBERT. And she stayed until the club closed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; she was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she have any boy friends you know of?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know of--she never had anybody come up there and----
Mr. HUBERT. And get her and take her home?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And get her and take her home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see Ruby taking her home?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where she lived?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Somewhere in Irving, but I don't know.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In Irving, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling] I-r-v-i-n-g?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you remember that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Wait a minute; I'm sorry, it's not Irving--it's Grand Prairie, because there was an AN number--that's Grand Prairie.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that far from Dallas?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; it isn't far from Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she drive a car?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She drives a car.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice in the sign which appears in the background of the photographs identified as Exhibits 5300-A and 5300-B, there are two other names--Tammi True and Sal Ember--who is Tammi True?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Tammi True was a stripper.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she there at the time of the assassination?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she stay on afterwards?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She stayed on.
Mr. HUBERT. Until the place closed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She wasn't there at the time she was there prior--no, she was there before the assassination--some weeks she had quit--served out her contract and she came back afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before----
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About a week, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't let me finish my question--how long before the assassination of the President did her contract expire, so that she' left or quit about a week, you say?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About a week.
Mr. HUBERT. And she had been there for some time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She had been there she was there when I got there and she was booked there off and on all while I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Sal Ember?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's not Sal Ember--that should have been--you see, some of the letters are missing--this was-- this should be Cindy Embers.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's take the top line first--the pictures, Exhibits 5300-A and 5300-B show on the top line the letters [spelling] S-a-1. You say that that was wrong and it should be something else and that some letters are missing?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What should it have been?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the Sal should have been Sal Vincent.
Mr. HUBERT. Vincent [spelling] V-i-n-c-e-n-t?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that--I think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was Sal Vincent?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A comedian.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the next name that appears on Exhibits 5300-A and 5300-B in the sign in the background below the word [spelling] S-a-l, is the word Ember [spelling] E-m-b-e-r, and I think you said that's wrong too, because of the absence of letters?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What should have been the letters?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Cindy Embers.
Mr. HUBERT. Cindy [spelling] C-i-n-d-y?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Embers [spelling] E-m-b-e-r-s?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And who was that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A stripper.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she there at the time of the assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When did she leave?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She left sometime ago---back, I think, the last time she was booked there was back in the summer. She never worked there over 3 or 4 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. And what about Sal Vincent?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He did--the first month after Wally Weston left.
Mr. HUBERT. When did Sal Vincent leave, how long before the death of the President?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About a month, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long had he been there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About a month.
Mr. HUBERT. And now, is it safe to say then, that these two pictures, Exhibits 5300-A and 5300-B must have been taken during the month of October 1963?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Because that's the only time when that sign would have made sense as to when those people were there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
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Mr. HUBERT. You don't recall the occassion when these pictures were taken?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Armstrong, it is necessary for us to recess your deposition for a short period of time and during this recess will you please examine the other pictures I have shown you and then we will resume your deposition later.
(Short recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Armstrong, we discontinued or recessed your deposition about 20 minutes to a half hour ago.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And now we are recommencing it and you understand, of course, that this is just merely a continuation of the deposition under the same authority under which it began, and that you must consider yourself under the same oath that you were at first?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a group of five pictures marked Exhibits 5301-A, B, C, D, and E. I have placed on the back of them "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong," and signed my name and I have given each one an exhibit number as indicated. Now, I would like for you to look at those pictures for a while and then I am going to ask you some questions concerning them.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. [Examined exhibits referred to.]
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in all of the five pictures which compose Exhibit 5301, there is a man; who is that man?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Also in all of those pictures there are two girls, and will you agree with me that in all five of them one girl is always on the left side of the picture as you look at it and one girl is always on the right side of the picture as you look at it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell who the girl on the left side of the picture is in each one of these pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. Joy Dale?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In other words she was Joyce McDonald.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the girl on the right-hand side, the blonde girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. "Little" Lynn.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same as Karen Bennett Carlin?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when these pictures were taken?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don't.
Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned some time ago that you recall when some individual named Rocco came in and took a group of pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you there when he took the pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that particular one. I didn't know he made that one. It could have been done while I was out tending the bar or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the scene that is in the pictures in the series Exhibit 5301?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that, please?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the office.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack's office?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is it the two girls are sitting on?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the couch.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, tell us what you know about the girl in the left-hand side of the picture as you look at it, that is to say, the girl with the dark hair?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, all I know----
Mr. HUBERT. And whom I think you have identified as Joyce McDonald.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose stage name, shall we say, was what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Joy Dale.
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Mr. HUBERT. What do you know about her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just that she is a stripper at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had she been there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She had been there some maybe 4 months before the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think she came about the middle of the summer, then, July or August?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let me see--let's---see September.
Mr. HUBERT. Mid-September?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do--how do you fix that, Mr. Armstrong?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, it was around the time that Wally left. I don't know whether she was there right after Wally left or just before Wally left.
Mr. HUBERT. Had she ever been there before, do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had long did she stay after the assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She left sometime--during the about 3 weeks in January of 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean she was there 3 weeks in January and then quit?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where she lived?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What salary do those strippers get?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Anywhere from $100 to $125.
Mr. HUBERT. A week?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A week--some of them made $150--some was $200.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the relationship was between Joyce McDonald and Jack Ruby, if any?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just a business relationship as far as I could see.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she go out to dinner with him?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did there seem to be any kind of social relationship between them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did there seem to be any kind of romantic or sexual relationship between them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby have any sexual or romantic relationships with any of the girls in his club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I would say he had some, as far as I know romantic relationships. In other words, he was always on the make.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, coming to Joyce McDonald, do you think she--that he was on the make with respect to her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I would not state definitely, but I believe he probably tried.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she have any boy friends around there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whom she lived with?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she drive an automobile?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She didn't drive.
Mr. HUBERT. How did she get to and from work; do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Usually somebody would bring her to work--I only saw her downstairs getting out of a car once and some man drove her to work, and that's the only time I ever saw her getting out of a car.
Mr. HUBERT. You would usually leave at night before they did didn't you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the other girl, the one on the right-hand side of the pictures as you look at them, which have been identified as series Exhibits 5301-A through 5301-E? I think you have said that the girls there, the blonde; is "Little" Lynn or Karen Bennett Carlin, is that correct?
Mr. ALEXANDER. That's correct.
Mr. HUBERT. She was married to Bruce Carlin?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; that's what they said.
Mr. HUBERT. She was the one, or rather her husband was the one that Jack didn't want around the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. She was the one, I think, that you called on Friday, the day of the assassination to tell her that the club would be closed that night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you could not reach the next day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know anything about either of these two girls that you have not testified to so far?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a single picture which I have marked on here for the purpose of identification as follows: "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5302, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong," and I have signed my name, and I ask you to look at that picture. It seems to be the picture of a man, and I ask you whether you can identify that man or not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's Rocco, the photographer, that made the pictures--took the series of pictures at the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. He was there for a week, you said?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what period of time was that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. What?
Mr. HUBERT. What period of time was he there---when was that week?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Around the 1st of November.
Mr. HUBERT. From the 1st to the 7th or 8th of November?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Something like that--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he pay anything for the purpose of taking those pictures--did--to your knowledge, did he pay anything?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. He got the consent of Mr. Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to show you a series of pictures which have been marked for identification as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibit 5303, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong," and I have marked my name on each of them, and they are numbered, in addition to Exhibit No. 5303, of which they form a part of the series, they are numbered A through I, and I ask you to look at those pictures, please.
Mr. ARMSTRONG [examined pictures referred to].
Mr. HUBERT. All right, now you have examined the several pictures constituting Exhibit 5303, marked in a series as A through I, and I will ask you whether you can recognize anybody in any of these pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Let's then take Exhibit No. 5303-A, first, and tell me whom you recognize in that picture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. This right here--the first picture.
Mr. HUBERT. We are talking about the top picture on the left hand side right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right--is Joy Dale, and the M.C. that's shown in all of these pictures, the little man on the stage give me a minute and I will try to think of his name, but coming down the line, the second picture on the left hand side is Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the girl--she is being held up by a very huge gentleman by the name of--oh--I know his name-- his name is Tiny--he comes in the club quite often and he usually gets the same seat--a special chair we had there for him.
Mr. HUBERT. This picture appears several times, does it not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, it appears in the third row of the left-hand picture?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And it appears in the bottom row of the left-hand picture, correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. How often would that man come to the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he started to coming there back in the summer--last summer and he was usually there he very seldom missed a weekend.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew him only as Tiny?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. As Tiny.
Mr. HUBERT. You never heard his last name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he friendly with Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not friendly--just that--he didn't well, you could say they was friendly, but they didn't know each other, anything about each other's backgrounds, or anything like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him talking with him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, not conversationally.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see them go out together and come back together?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he spend a lot of money there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, a few beers was all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him with anyone else?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He always came alone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. One time he came there with a couple other guys, but just once, otherwise, he was all alone.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know the other men he came with?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember when he came in with the other two men?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No--the top picture is----
Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute, before we leave the big man called Tiny, when was the last time you saw him, to your knowledge?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three or four nights ago---Saturday night--I think.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean this past Saturday night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about April 11?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you see him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the Theatre Lounge.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you work there now?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I stopped by and say hello to a friend of mine that works there and bartends.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was over there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have saw him in there, oh, about four times I think in the last month--I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. And prior to that, when was the last time you saw him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Prior to that--the last time I saw him was at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, I would say it was probably the last weekend before we closed.
Mr. HUBERT. He continued to come to the club, then, after the assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him about Ruby's shooting Oswald?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him talk to anybody else about it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, never did. The reason why he's got to be so popular is because he is a helper--he cracks a few jokes and the M.C.'s like to talk to him because he don't get out of line when they talk to him, and he is usually called on during the spinning of the roulette wheel, or something like that, and if he won a bottle of champagne or something like that, it was a big thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he employed by the club?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he wasn't employed, he was just a regular customer that has very nice conduct and has a good sense of humor.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the M.C.'s figure they can always get a kick out of him, which would amuse the audience?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a picture which is marked for identification as Exhibit 5303-I, and ask you if that is not that same fat man on the right-hand middle of the picture, with a white shirt, with his right hand on his hip and the left hand leaning on the stage right by the microphone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the man, Tiny, that you have identified as being in Exhibit 5303-A; is that correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And while we are looking at Exhibit 5303-I, who is the girl dancing there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The waitress over there.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the one with the white blouse?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And she has dark hair; you can't see her face, but you can see the back of her figure.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think it's Bonnie.
Mr. HUBERT. Bonnie who?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bonnie Kelley is all I know.
Mr. HUBERT. That girl you are identifying is in the left middle of the picture; right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Right behind the man with the gray suit and with his left hand by his mouth and a cigarette in his left hand; is that right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's correct; and this is Tiny's usual position--his usual sitting position--he always gets this table right here [indicating].
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I wish you would just take these pictures, starting with Exhibit 5303-B, and Just state for the record who is in the picture that you know, identifying each of the particular frames, by saying whether it is in the top row, second row, third row, or fourth row, and then whether it is on the left-hand side, the middle, or the right-hand side.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. On the top row on the left-hand side is Tammi True. On the top row in the middle is Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, perhaps we could shorten this by putting it this way: On this number of pictures, 12 to be exact, of Exhibit 5303-B, the girl who is doing the act is Tammi True right--in all of them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. It isn't?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. On the series of pictures in the left line down from the top to bottom and in the middle from top to bottom is Tammi True. The pictures on the right-hand side the brighter pictures--are Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. All four of them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. All four of them.
Mr. HUBERT. On the right-hand side?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You have identified the pictures on Exhibit 5303-B?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you look at Exhibit 5303-C? There are 12 pictures on that, and they are all the same girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. They are all the same girl, Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anyone else in there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No one else.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, take Exhibit 5303--D. There are 12 pictures in that and they are all of the same girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; they are all the same girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Little Lynn.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'll ask you to look at Exhibit 5303-E. There are 12 pictures on that, showing various poses of a girl, is it all the same girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; all the same girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anybody else in there you recognize?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No one else.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, take the next picture, which has been identified as Exhibit 5303-F, also consisting of 12 pictures, except that in the second row the middle picture is blank, so that there are really only 11 pictures, and I ask you if the same girl is in all those pictures; that is to say, the dancer?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, let's take the left-hand row from top to bottom. Is it the same girl in those four pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Same girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. And in the middle series there is a top picture and the next one down is blank and then the third and fourth rows from the top, there are two others--who is in those pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. In all of them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. All of them.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, move to the right-hand row; there are four pictures from the top down, and will you identify them? Are they different girls in those pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; that's Little Lynn.
Mr. HUBERT. They are all of Little Lynn?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anybody else in there you recognize in those pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just a waitress in the bottom picture.
Mr. HUBERT. In the bottom right-hand picture; right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. The girl with dark glasses on, on the right-hand side of that picture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Does she have shorts on, or something?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She has some white slacks on.
Mr. HUBERT. And a black sweater?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bonnie Kelley.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that's the girl you identified in a previous picture; is that right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Anybody else you recognize?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; no one else.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a group of 12 pictures identified as Exhibit 5303-G, and ask you if the same girl is in all of those pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The same girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. Anybody else you recognize in any of those pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, I show you an exhibit marked 5303-H, also a group of 12 pictures, and ask you to start with the row of 4 pictures on the right-hand side from the top to the bottom; who is in those 4 pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. Kathy Kay?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; on the right-hand side?
Mr. HUBERT. On the right-hand side.
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; this is Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. She is in all four of those?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. All four of them.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, take the middle row; who is the girl in those?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the man?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. No; the left-hand row of four pictures--the two from the top--the first and second pictures from the top, can you identify those people?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the lower pictures on the left-hand row; there are two people, a man and a girl; who are they?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's Kathy Kay; I don't know who the man is.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he employed by the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Armstrong, we have been taking your deposition all day and it is now 5:15 p.m., and I suggest that we adjourn and that you come back Thursday morning---can you do that---or Thursday afternoon?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you come in without any further notice on Thursday, April 16?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; we will recess your deposition until that time and complete it on Thursday, April 16. ----------------------------------
TESTIMONY OF ANDREW ARMSTRONG, JR. RESUMED
The testimony of Andrew Armstrong, Jr., was taken at 9:12 a.m. on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Armstrong, you reca11 that day before yesterday we recessed the taking of your deposition because it was getting late in the day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And we made an appointment to continue it today at 1:30, but that was changed again to 9 o'clock?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's right.
Mr. HUBERT. That's satisfactory with you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you understand that what we are going to do today is simply a continuation of the deposition that was begun the other day; you understand that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That I am acting under the same authority, that you are here in the same way that you were here before, and that you are under the same oath that you were under when you testified before?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Except there has been a recess just like there was on Tuesday when we recessed for lunch?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Only this recess has been a little longer?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Armstrong, when we left off the other day, you had been examining a number of pictures which had been marked for identification as Exhibit 5303, and I believe that you had examined all of the pictures in that serieS except those marked for identification as Exhibits 5303-J, K, L, and M. Now, I show you, first of all, the picture identified as Exhibit 5303-J, and ask you if you recognize what place is pictured there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's the Carousel Club.
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Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I recognize the girl standing on the stage.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the girl with the dark skirt, light sweater, and with long tresses?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The picture shows only the back of her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, she is right back of the microphone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is that girl?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the man just in front of her, right in the center of the picture, leaning over?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's a customer; I don't know who he is.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know who he was?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him before?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody else in that picture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just the M.C. standing back by the girl, but I can't recall his name.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say "the M.C," you are referring to the person in that picture whose head stands between Tammi True and the customer you have identified and actually right above the top of the microphone?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He was an M.C.?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know his name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I can't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that Wally Weston?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Who followed Wally Weston; do you know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sal Vincent; he followed Wally Weston, and this guy followed Sal Vincent.
Mr. HUBERT. It that Bill DeMar?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I don't think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when Sal Vincent left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sal was only there 2 or 3 weeks. In other words, you could say the last part of--during the last part of September, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Vincent, you say?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; Sal Vincent.
Mr. HUBERT. Then he left, you mean, in the last part of September?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He was there about 3 weeks?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. About 3 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. And Wally Weston had been there before him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had Weston been there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Wally had been there since about June 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he had been there about 15 months when he left?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was following Sal Vincent?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Sal Vincent stayed 3 weeks, until about the end of September?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And this man you have identified as the M.C. in Exhibit 5303-J took his place?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he stayed how long?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He stayed about a month, I would say; he stayed about a month.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that he stayed until about November 1 or later?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I would say he stayed about that.
Mr. HUBERT. And who followed him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bill DeMar.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did Bill stay--Bill DeMar stay?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bill DeMar stayed up until after the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long had Bill DeMar been there when the assassination took place?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. 3 weeks---3 or 4 weeks, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that Bill DeMar came in there about the 1st of November?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that he took the place of Sal Vincent?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--no--no, he took the place of this man right here [indicating picture].
Mr. HUBERT. That man?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The man I can't identify.
Mr. HUBERT. He took the place of the man whose name you can't remember, in Exhibit 5303-J, but whose name you don't remember?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. If you do happen to remember his name a little later on, will you interrupt me and tell us about it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you realize anybody else in that picture, identified as Exhibit 5303-J?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then I show you a picture which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5303-K, and I ask you to look at it.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. All right [examining instrument referred to].
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the place is?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, that's the club--I'm sure of that--I'm sure that that is the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody in it at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; the waitress in the upper right-hand corner.
Mr. HUBERT. The waitress in the far background in the upper right-hand corner, whose profile can be seen, and also her left arm--she seems to have a white blouse on, right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. She is standing by a picture frame or a window or something, correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's our little Margie---her name is Margie.
Mr. HUBERT. Margie what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Marie Norman.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody else?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I'm marking with an arrow, which I am placing my initials on, and I ask you to place your initials on next to that arrow too, and the arrow points to a man about in the center of the picture at the bottom, and he has on what appears to be a grayish cheked shirt--you can see him by profile he parts his hair on his left side. Do you know who that man is?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen him before?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you recognize nobody else in the picture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you pictures marked for identification as Exhibits 5303-L, and ask you if you recognize the place, first?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It's the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is on the stage holding the mike?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else is in the picture that you recognize?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No one else.
Mr. HUBERT. I show you another picture which has been identified as Exhibit 5303-M, and ask you first if you can identify the place?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the man on the stage holding the mike?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a picture which has been marked for identification as Exhibit 5304-A and ask you to look at that picture and tell us, first of all, if you recognize the place?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it the Carousel Club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know it is not the Carousel; how do you distinguish it from me Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the whole picture--it's definitely not the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the Carousel have that kind of furniture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it have a bar?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it have a bar with liquor bottles on it like that one does?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it have chandeliers like that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize any person in that picture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, I sure don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the man sitting at the table in the foreground of the picture who is being served a drink by a girl in costume?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen him at the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't remember him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen him anywhere?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the girl who is serving him the drink, do you recognize her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen her any place?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you see a man in the picture near the bar who appears to be the bartender?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don't see him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I see him but I can't see him too clear--I don't recognize him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Mike Ryan?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that Mike Ryan?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You are certain that it is not Mike Ryan?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Positive.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was Mike Ryan?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was just a--he came in--the first time I ever met him he was with Jack, and he was sort of a lone wolf sort of on the go all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come around the Carousel very much?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At one time--I would say it was within a period of a coupleof weeks he was around there quite often.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that period of a couple of weeks that he came aroundthere very often?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't recall--it was during last summer.
Mr. HUEBRT. You mean the summer of 1963?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been when Wally Weston was there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was when Wally Weston was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come after that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But not as often?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of Ruby and him discussing anything?
Mr. ARMSTRONG, YEs, I guess, business.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. They were discussing business.
Mr. HUBERT. They were discussing business?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack was always discussing some kind of business with somebody--he always had some kind of idea about another club or another kind of business.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what kind of business he was discussing with the man you have named as Mike Ryan?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A private club.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard such a conversation?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean another private club in addition to the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, the Carousel wasn't a private club.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see; so in other words, the thought was to open a private club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just talk though.
Mr. HUBERT. And talk is all you would know about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes. I mean--it was just one of Jack's wild ideas, that's all.
Mr. HUBERT. Why do you characterize it as a wild idea?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he always had these ideas---it was something this day and something the next day.
Mr. HUBERT. But the only reason you are saying this was a wild idea is because you are thinking it was like some of his other wild idea?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But other than that you don't know whether it was a wild idea or not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other business between Ryan and Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; no more.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they go out socially?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Ryan since the assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he came up to the club a couple of times and I saw him the day he left for California, at least that's where he told me he was going.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It must have been around the first of December.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean it was right after Oswald was shot?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven't seen him since?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what business he had in California?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, he didn't.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times after Oswald was shot do you suppose you saw Ryan in the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A couple of times, oh, two or three times.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about Ruby and what had happened?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; no more than anybody else did. He said, everybody would always ask me, "What's wrong with your boss?" And he said the same thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Tommy, who used to go out with Joy Dale, kind of a boy friend of hers?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. A baseball player?
Mr. HUBERT. I don't know.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, there was a guy that used to bring her to work sometime, so she said, but I never saw him, and he came up and worked--handled the door sometimes for Jack, he did, and they would always sit down and talk together--he and Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after Oswald was shot and you remained on, and Mr. Paul began to operate the club, did Mr. Paul get anybody to handle the front door?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Leo Torti handled the front door most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man was he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I take he was in his late forties.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a little gray in his hair?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. A little gray.
Mr. HUBERT. He handled the door?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He handled the door.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him and this man Torti we are talking about sitting together?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; Tommy always sat close to the door.
Mr. HUBERT. He handled the door sometimes himself?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sometimes; himself.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. I show you a picture that has been identified as Exhibit 5304-B and ask you if you can recognize the place that is pictured in there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; it is not.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any of the people who are pictured in that picture?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I sure don't.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will show you a-group of photographs which have been identified as follows: "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong, Exhibit 5305-A through 5305-S." All of these also bear an Exhibit No. 5225, April 10, 1964, deposition of C.L. Crafard, and I will ask you to look at them, starting with Exhibit A and see if you recognize what those pictures show?
Mr. ARMSTRONG [examining pictures referred to]. This picture here shows.
Mr. HUBERT. That's the first one, and that is Exhibit 5305-A, is it not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It shows the back of a l0-cent notebook.
Mr. HUBERT. The back of whose notebook?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I can't identify that because I don't know--it could be anybody's notebook.
Mr. HUBERT. It appears to you to be a l0-cent notebook, because it says "10 cents" on the front of it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see a book which had a back and front like that which appears in the picture, Exhibit 5305-A?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Lots of places.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any at the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any in Jack Ruby's possession?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack Ruby have one that had a back and front like the one in the picture, Exhibit 5305-A?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he did not, or you don't know?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he could have--I never saw it.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, sir.
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Mr. HUBERT. Now, would you look at the rest of those pictures, just taking them as they are and putting them face down, and see if you recognize any of the writings or names or anything else in those pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. This is Jack's handwriting.
Mr. HUBERT. You recognize Jack's handwriting--in which ones?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. In all of them that I have seen.
Mr. HUBERT. That's in all of them that you have seen so far?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time you made the remark that you recognized Jack's handwriting, I think you were on the picture that is identified as Exhibit 5305-B. You had also looked at Exhibit 5305-C?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you to look at the whole bunch and tell us if they are in Jack's handwriting or not?
(Mr. Armstrong examines instruments referred to.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you've gone through the whole series of photographs and, which are photographs of pages of books that have been identified as Exhibit 5305-A through Exhibit 5305-S, and I ask you if you can tell us whose handwriting is in those books?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It appears to me that it is Jack's handwriting.
Mr. HUBERT. There's a lot of it that is in print, isn't there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Especially the print.
Mr. HUBERT. His print--you recognize his prints?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. We both printed more than we wrote.
Mr. HUBERT. You have seen his print before?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It's your opinion that that is his print?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see the book before the original of which these exhibits are pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; he always had a little notebook, but it was one that opened--not to pull the page up, but opened just like a regular book, you know, a little small book about 2 inches by 1 1/2 inches--just a very little small book.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as you went through these pictures, Exhibits 5305-A through 5305-S, did you recognize any names or numbers or addresses?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I saw Little Lynn's name there and I saw Tom Palmer's name.
Mr. HUBERT. Tom who?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Tom Palmer.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Tom Palmer?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He's one of the union agents--he was the Dallas union agent for the AGVA.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize any other names?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I wasn't looking at the names--just mostly handwriting.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you had better go through and look at them with the names in mind and take them one by one and tell us any names you can recognize in anyway. The first one is Exhibit 5305-A, and that's the cover. No. 5305-B is the one---now, if you recognize anything, stop so that we can identify the exhibit number of the picture that you recognize.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I recognize the name "Vegas Club" on the top of that.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Exhibit 5305-D. Is there any significance to you other than that you recognize the name "Vegas Club" on that exhibit?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just that they have some figures there for tax, which is the usual procedure of putting them down-- the usual way.
Mr. HUBERT. Just go on and if you have no recognition of any picture, just pass it without comment.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I recognize the print on this as excise tax for the Carousel Club.
Mr. HUBERT. What exhibit are you talking about--is that Exhibit 5305-H?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Any significance to that recognition other than you recognize this, sir?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I recognize what it means--I recognize the name Tom Palmer and his home phone number.
Mr. HUBERT. Your comment is directed to Exhibit 5305-H, is that correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I recognize the name Bro. Bear.
Mr. HUBERT. You are referring to Exhibit 5305-M, and you recognize a name on it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bro. Bear.
Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling.] "B-r-o. B-e-a-r" and underneath that is "Service" and then there is a telephone number--LA 8- -1767." What do you recognize about that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Just the name Bro. Bear.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was an entertainer at the Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of entertainment did he do?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I think he sings and he played some instrument--I don't know which.
Mr. HUBERT. Was at the Carousel?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I see a name on that same Exhibit 5305-M, "Bertha Cheek," do you recognize that name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't know of any person by that name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I also see on this same Exhibit No. 5305-M at the bottom of the page, Bob Litchfield [spelling] L-i-t-c-h-f-i-e-l-d.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I have heard the name but I don't know who it is.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose handwriting is that entry in?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Whose handwriting is that in--I'm not going to say thatthat's Jack's, because his handwriting--I can't tell too much about that.
Mr. HUBERT. You can't be sure that that's Jack's handwriting?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; not the writing, but the printing I could--if it wasprinting I could--the numbers look like it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who Bob Litchfield was?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bob Litchfield; Bob Littlefield.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I'm sorry--I was reading it wrong--perhaps that is right, this says [spelling] L-i-c-h-f-i-e-l-d.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's a magazine. let's see--I don't know. It was the "Around Town" magazine, I think it was the Littlefield "Around Town" magazine.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a man called Bob Littlefield?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you read the name here at the bottom of the page as"Littlefield". Let's put it this way--you have already told us about a man named Bob Littlefield--what do you know about a man named Bob Lichfield here?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. Nothing at all; you never heard of him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it make any difference to you that he might have been known as Bill Lichfield?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn't know a Bill Lichfield?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I recognize the man--I recognize the name "Little Lynn."
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Exhibit 5305-S?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. And it has her phone number.
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Mr. HUBERT. You say you recognize "Little Lynn," you have already testified about her, I believe?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I Show you two pictures that have been marked for identification as Exhibits 5306-A and 5306-B, each of which purports to be pictures of three memo slips, and ask you if you recognize them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I can't.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whose handwriting they are in?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It doesn't look like Jack's handwriting.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize any names or telephone numbers on those memo slips?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have looked at all six of them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you read the messages that each contained?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, yes; here's one I think----
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are talking about the memo slip on the right-hand side of the pictures as you look at it, the picture having been identified as Exhibit 5306--B. Now, will you comment on that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. I had asked you whether the message meant anything to you. You seemed to indicate that the message on the picture I have described does indicate something to you, and now I ask you what does it indicate?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I'm sorry. I made a mistake---it doesn't, but this one here, the one in the center, I think that's Palmer--Tom Palmer.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you are referring to the middle slip on the picture identified as Exhibit 5306-A, and you say the message there you recognize; right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you recognize it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The telephone number and the name.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the memo slip that you are talking about, and I repeat for identification, that it is the middle memo slip on Exhibit No. 5306-A, apparently is addressed to Ruby because it has his name there, although one can see in the picture, can't one, that there was a word that looks like somebody started to write "Armstrong" and then stopped--right--or something?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the date is 11-14 at 3:40, and then there was printed "while you were out Pauline [spelling] P-a-u-l- i-n-e phoned, FE 7-5992." It looks like.
And then there is a checkmark in the block "telephoned" and a checkmark in the block "please call" and the message is: "This one I couldn't tell if she was colored or white," is that correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you identified that with Palmer?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It looked like it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, if you were mistaken, say so?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I was mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection of that message now?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any that you had any recognition about, any one of the six memo slips on the Exhibits 5306-A and 5306-B?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will show you an exhibit that has been identified as Exhibit 5307-A. It is a picture of one slip of paper, and I ask you if you could identify that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; now I show you photostats of a number of pages in a book, which have been identified the other day when you first were here: "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964, Exhibits 5308, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong," and I ask you to look at all those pictures first, and tell me if you recognize that book at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I've already looked at them.
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Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about it do you recognize? What book was that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. This is a little notebook that Larry carried around and took messages on and wrote checks, phone numbers, and things down on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see it before?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was it at the club--where was it kept?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Larry kept it in his pocket, although, when he left, he left it there with him.
Mr. HUBERT. He left it where?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He left it at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. He left it with you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No, no; he just left it at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you came back to the club, the day after Larry left, to clean up, I think you found some other things of his and you found that too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or, did you find that at another time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not that same day. No; I didn't find it then--it was later.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you find it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Sometime after the club opened back up--I don't know whether it was Monday or Tuesday---whatever day the FBI's came up this day, I found this.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It was in the room where he slept.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you find it on the same day that you found the letters?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I think so.
Mr. HUBERT. They were together?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you.turned them over to the FBI?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you said you have looked over that book already--the other day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything significant about that book you wish to comment upon?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; I can recognize a few names in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall if they were names of any people that you have not so far mentioned in your deposition?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I think
Mr. HUBERT. All right; I would like you to go through and pick out the names of the people that have not yet been discussed by you as part of your deposition.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Here is a name Mike Shore I've heard it before I think he is an agent.
Mr. HUBERT. That's on the first page, right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; and here is a name Abe Kleinman--which is the accountant.
Mr. HUBERT. That's on the second page?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Earl Ruby, that's Jack's brother.
Mr. HUBERT. That's on the second page?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Doris and Peggy, on the second page, which they had called for to apply for jobs.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No; Larry did himself.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know, then, that they had called to apply for jobs?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he told me he wrote the name down and it was the day we were looking for waitresses, and he give me the numbers, and I didn't reach them as they were not at home or something, and the name Bill DeMar.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. He's an M.C.--the name Mike Ryan.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already talked to us about Mike Ryan, haven't you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Little Lynn--I have already talked to you about that. Here's a name Bobby Patterson of-- I've heard of, I don't know him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What have you heard about him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Nothing--I just heard the name--I forget what he was connected with.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the witness is looking over the pictures, and that as he has any comment, he has been asked to make such comment without further questioning from me.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes; I recognize the back of the notebook.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the back of the notebook.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I just recognize that that's the notebook that belonged to Larry.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I Show you a document which is described as a photostatic copy of some sort of a notebook which has been identified as follows: This page is marked, "Dallas. Texas, April 14, 1964," which is when your deposition began, "Exhibit 5309-A, Deposition of Andrew Armstrong," and I have signed it.
Let the record show also that this exhibit is also marked "Washington, D.C., Deposition of C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5302, April 9, 1964," and under which appears the name of Mr. Burt Griffin.
This exhibit consists of nine pages. There is typewritten on the front of it, "Notebook number 1," found on the left-hand bottom of the exhibit, and the number "(1)" and then on each of the subsequent pages there is typewritten there at the right-hand side, "No. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9," in that sequence.
I ask you if you can identify that document? Now, look the whole thing over and we will do it in this way. I want you to look it all over first and tell me without making any comment, and then tell me whether you identify it or not.
Mr. ARMSTRONG [examining instrument referred to].
Mr. HUBERT. All right, now you have looked over all of these pages, and first I ask you whether you recognize the book at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the handwriting or printing in it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I believe once one time a long time ago Jack had a notebook like this.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you say now whether the one you think he had a long time ago is shown in these photostatic pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. It must be, because my old telephone number is in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Your recognition of the book, though, is not based on an actual recognition now, but an assumption, isn't it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You really can't recognize that as Jack's handwriting or have a distinct independent recollection of having seen the original of which those pages are photos?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I'll ask you to do as you have done with the last exhibit, and that is to look over each page and see if you recognize any name or number if you do not, pass to the next page. If you do, stop and tell us what page it is on and then make what comments you have to make.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. [examining instrument referred to]. First, I'll say I believe that is Jack's handwriting.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, a moment ago you said you couldn't be sure have you changed your mind?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to do that?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Certain letters here that I know his way of printing.
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Mr. HUBERT. Now, go on with the examination of each page as I have asked you to do.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The name Bill Willis.
Mr. HUBERT. What page are you talking about--that is typewritten at the bottom of page 4 right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. At the bottom of page 4.
Mr. HUBERT. What name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Bill Willis.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was a drummer at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. When was he a drummer at the club?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Ever since I been there.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there until the place closed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he was there almost 2 years?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He was there longer than that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he and Jack get along all right?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. They got along better than anybody else.
Mr. HUBERT. What evidence did you see to support that conclusion on your part?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, Bill Willis was one of the few guys that I ever heard Jack say was a nice guy--continuously.
Mr. HUBERT. Was--so, your assumption that they got along better than anyone else is based on what Jack told you about him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was that Jack continuously said he was a nice guy?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. He liked him and everybody else did, because he is really a wonderful person. I recognize my phone number and the name "Andy."
Mr. HUBERT. That's on page 4?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. On page 4---I recognize the name "Wally Weston."
Mr. HUBERT. That's on page 6?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. That's on page 6. I have heard Jack mention the name Joe Cook.
Mr. HUBERT. That's on page 6, too?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Joe Cook?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack have to say about him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, he just mentioned him in his business--I've forgotten what it was.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he mention Joe Cook?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I can't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been shortly after you got there, towards the end, or about the middle of the time you were there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know--I couldn't say. I recognize the name Peggy Steele.
Mr. HUBERT. That was on page 8---who was Peggy Steele?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. She was a stripper that was booked there for about a month.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago---what period of time was she there?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't know--it was sometime about the fall of 1962, I would say.
Mr. HUBERT. She was there for about a month?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. After she left, did you ever see her?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she ever around the club any more?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the fall of 1962, not 1963; is that correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. 1962--yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have gone through all of the pages 1 through 9 of
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Exhibit 5309-A, and I understand that you have made all the comments that you have to make about any of the entries on those various pages, and that is to say that you made a comment as to any name that had any significance to you at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And if you have not commented on the name, that means that the name has no significance to you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. I am going to ask you to do substantially the same thing with another document that I am handing you that has been identified, "Dallas, Texas, April 14, 1964," and this was marked for identification on your last appearance. It is marked as Exhibit 5309-B, "Deposition of Andrew Armstrong." I have signed it. The document consists of 20 pages. It is a photostat of an original, apparently. It has written in type "Notebook No. (2), page 1," on the first page, and then on each of the subsequent pages there are numbers running from 2 to 20. I would also like to have the record note that this exhibit has also been marked as "Exhibit 5204," relative to the deposition of C. L. Crafard. I would like you first of all to look through all of the pages for the purpose of a general identification, after which I am going to ask you to go over each page as you did the previous document.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. [Examining instrument referred to.] Okay.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record, show that the witness is examining each page of the exhibit Now, you have looked at all of the pages of that Exhibit 5309-B, and you have identified it all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes---no--well, yes, I have looked at it but I haven't identified it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we'll put it this way--have you ever seen the original of which this exhibit is a series of pictures?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen that address book, or whatever it is?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I don't remember seeing this--now, I could have, but I don't remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't remember ever having seen it at all?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Let me make this statement.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead--you wish to make a statement?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack kept a number of little books and little pieces of paper wrapped up with a rubber band in his coat pocket and whenever he got ready to look for anything he would take it out and run through it, take out one of those little books, which I didn't pay any attention to it--this could be One of the little books he had.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do not recognize it?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you don't believe you have ever seen it before?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will ask you to go over each individual page and if there is any entry or name that has any significance to you or that you recognize in any way, stop and identify the page and then make your comment. If, as you turn the pages over and examine them you have no recognition or the entries are not significant to you, then your silence as to each page will mean precisely that. That is to say, that those entries mean nothing to you.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. [Examining instrument referred to.] I recognize the name Sam Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. That's what page---the page you are referring seems to be un-numbered--an unnumbered page, but it is the third page back from the one that is numbered 20, is that correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Sam Ruby?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Jack Ruby's brother.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he around the club much?
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Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet him before Oswald was shot?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I met him at the club.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Three or four times.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever speak to him?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Oh, nothing--he would tell me about his business.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him prior to the assassination?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. The last time I saw him was at the trial.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him prior to the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I can't recall.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, did you see any other names that you recognized in that exhibit?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No others.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Armstrong, the other day I asked you to read a number of reports which purport to be reports by agents of the FBI of interviews of you?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you read them at that time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Those were marked for identification the other day as follows:
"The interview by Special Agent Lish and Wilson, dated November 26, as Exhibit 5310-A," consisting of two pages; the interview on November 27, consisting of one page, which was identified as Exhibit 5310-B; the interview of December 9, 1963, consisting of one page was identified as Exhibit 5310-C; and another interview of December 9, 1963, consisting of one page and which is identified as Exhibit 5310-D; the interview of December 13, 1963, consisting of one page and was identified as Exhibit 5310-E; the exhibit of December 19, 1963, was identified as Exhibit 5310-F; and exhibit dated January 22, 1964, was identified as Exhibit 5310-G, and it consists of four pages.
I have signed my name on the margin of the first page and my initials at the right-hand bottom of all the other pages.
I think you have read these various exhibits carefully the other day, did you not?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, if my recollection serves me right, it took you about an hour or so, did it not, to do so; is that correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you wish to look them over again?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I'm going to ask you a question, and if you do wish to look them over again, in the light of my question, please say so, because you will be allowed to do so?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. What I want to know is whether or not these various Exhibits5310-A through 5310-G are fair reports and correct reports of the interviewswith the various agents of the FBI on the dates dated?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice anything that was incorrect?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes--not in this, but in the statement that I made daybefore yesterday.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you mean that when you say something was incorrect--you mean you said something was incorrect the other day?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
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Mr. HUBERT. Well, we'll get to that in a moment, but before we do, let's dispose of these Exhibits 5310--A through 5310-G.
As far as you know, and you have read them, there is nothing in those exhibits that is incorrect?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. It represents the truth as you know it and as you told it to the FBI agents?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that there was something that was incorrect the other day that you said while in the course of your deposition?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what that was, please, sir?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. When you asked me what time did I leave the club on Saturday night.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. I said 8 o'clock and in the report here it says 9, and after I read the report, I remembered that it was 9 o'clock when I left the club.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the correction you want to make, then, is not in the FBI report but in your own testimony?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Your memory has now been refreshed by the report and you actually recollect that your time of departure from the club on Saturday night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was 9 o'clock rather than 8 o'clock?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Everything was right but the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Everything you said there was right except the time?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Except the time.
Mr. HUBERT. And you wish to correct your previous testimony insofar as you stated that you left at 8 o'clock, so that the record will show that in fact you left at 9 o'clock on Saturday night?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. November 23?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are telling me the reason you wish to make that correction is because of what?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Because I remember that after reading the statement that it was 9 o'clock when I left.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you have an independent recollection of having left at 9 o'clock instead of 8 o'clock, or are you simply relying upon what the FBI record shows you must have told them?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, no; it just brought back to my memory that it was originally set at 8 o'clock that I was going to leave. Then, before Jack left, he said, "Why don't you make it 9" and I didn't want to, but I said, "Okay," and that's when we got in the argument over the telephone and he wanted me to stay on until 10.
Mr. HUBERT. And at that time I thought you said you went ahead and left anyhow at 8 o'clock?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I did, but I went ahead and left anyway at 9 o'clock.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you were in error the other day when you said that after the argument with Jack you went ahead and left at 8, the time you had agreed upon anyhow?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He wanted you to stay until 10?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had agreed to stay until 8?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you actually stayed until 9; is that correct?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Armstrong, have you ever been interviewed before you met me by any member of the President's Commission?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, you have testified before me for a whole day now,
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almost a half day, and necessarily there have been some conversations between us that have not been on the record, not purposely so, but simply at recess time.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But, even including everything that has occurred, all conversations between us at recess time or going down the elevator or one thing or another, is there anything that we discussed at those recess times which you can remember has not been brought up and recorded in this deposition?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, we haven't discussed anything concerning the business that we was discussing on the record.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mean we might have discussed things unrelated to this inquiry?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Well, I'll just put it this way--I don't think we have discussed anything.
Mr. HUBERT. You don't have any recollection of anything at all that we have discussed?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And in any case, if we might have discussed anything, it has been brought out on this record?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state that anyone who would read your deposition of the other day and today and would read the FBI reports as to what you tadsf them, which you have said are correct, would have a true and correct version all that you know about the matter we have been talking about?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that you can think of that is not contained either your deposition or the statements that you have made to the FBI?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say, Mr. Armstrong?
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Not a thing.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, we certainly do thank you.
Mr. ARMSTRONG. Thank you.