TESTIMONY OF LEWIS McWILLIE, LAS VEGAS, NEV.

Mr. PREYER. Will you stand and be sworn, Mr. McWillie. Do you solemnly swear the evidence you are about to give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. PREYER. Mr. McWillie, pursuant to your request, all microphones and lenses, broadcasting equipment, have been cut off.
The Chair recognizes counsel Donald Purdy for questioning of this witness.
Mr. PURDY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. McWillie, what is your full name and where do you live?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Lewis J. McWillie.
Mr. PURDY. Where do you live?
Mr. McWILLIE Las Vegas, Nev.
Mr. PURDY. How long have you lived there?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, off and on since 1963.
Mr. PURDY. What is your present occupation?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I work in a gambling house.
Mr. PURDY. Prior to your present employment, where did you work?
Mr. McWILLIE. Binion's Horse Shoe Club.
Mr. PURDY. Have you been involved in working in gambling casinos since you moved to Las Vegas in 1963?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, sir.
Mr. PURDY. For how many years have you been involved in gambling casinos and gambling operations throughout the country?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I would say 46 years.
Mr. PURDY. In what cities have you been involved in gambling operations or casinos?
Mr. McWILLIE. Oh, what cities?
Mr. PURDY. Yes, sir.
Mr. McWILLIE. In this country?
Mr. PURDY. Or in other countries.
Mr. MCWILLIE. Well, I started off in Memphis, Tenn., and then I was in Mississippi.
Mr. PURDY. Approximately when? Please give the years in which you were in those cities also.
Mr. MCWILLIE. Oh, I would say Memphis, 1932-36.
Mr. PURDY. What city were you working in gambling casinos after that?
Mr. McWILLIE. Prior to that?
Mr. PURDY. After that.
Mr. McWILLIE. After that?
Mr. PURDY. Subsequent to 1936?
Mr. McWILLIE. Then I was in Jackson, Miss. after that.
Mr. PURDY. How long were you working and living in Jackson, Miss.?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, a short while, and then in Osyka, Miss.
Mr. PURDY. Were you also involved in gambling there?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes sir.
Mr. PURDY. When did. you leave there and where did you go?
Mr. McWILLIE. I left there, lets see, I would say 1939 or 1940. I don't know exactly.
Mr. PURDY. What cities did you work in since then?
Mr. McWILLIE. Dallas.
Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling in Dallas?
Mr. McWILLIE. I was a dealer there, yes.
Mr. PURDY. During what years did you live in Dallas?
Mr. McWILLIE. I would say from 1940 to 1958.
Mr. PURDY. Where did you go after you lived in Dallas?
Mr. McWILLIE. After I left Dallas?
Mr. PURDY. Yes.
Mr. McWILLIE. I went to Cuba.
Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling in Cuba?
Mr. McWILLIE. I managed the Tropicana Night Club.
Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes sir.
Mr. PURDY. Subsequent to your work in Cuba, where did you move to?
Mr. McWILLIE. Subsequent. That means afterwards?
Mr. PURDY. Yes.
Mr. McWILLIE. I went to Miami and stayed until the first of June.
Mr. PURDY. The first of June of what year?
Mr. McWILLIE. 1961.
Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling in Miami?
Mr. McWILLIE. No.
Mr. PURDY. Where did you live after you left Miami?
Mr. McWILLIE. After I left Miami I went to Lake Tahoe.
Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling in Lake Tahoe?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, I was a pit boss.
Mr. PURDY. When did you leave Lake Tahoe?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I left Lake Tahoe in September of 1961.
Mr. PURDY. Did you move to Las Vegas from Lake Tahoe?
Mr. McWILLIE. I moved to Reno.
Mr. PURDY. Were you involved in gambling in Reno?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes sir.
Mr. PURDY. How long were you in Reno?
Mr. McWILLIE. 1961. I left there, let's see, right before Christmas of 1963, I believe.
Mr. PURDY. And you moved to Las Vegas?
Mr. McWILLIE- No, I went back to Miami to visit with my mother.
Mr. PURDY. How long were you there?
Mr. McWILLIE. Oh, 3 weeks.
Mr. PURDY. Where did you go after you visited Miami?
Mr. McWILLIE. I went back to Las Vegas.
Mr. PURDY. Have you lived in Las Vegas since?
Mr. McWILLIE. Off and on yes.
Mr. PURDY. You have been involved in gambling casinos while you have been in Las Vegas?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well the first, you want me to tell you the casinos?
Mr. PURDY. I don't think we need to cover the specific casinos at this time.
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, I was involved in casino work.
Mr. PURDY. What has been the nature of your involvement in casino work over these years?
Mr. McWILLIE. Working in the gambling part of it, overseeing the gambling.
Mr. PURDY. Mr. McWillie, what were the circumstances surrounding your first encounter with Jack Ruby?
Mr. McWILLIE. What were the circumstances?
Mr. PURDY. Yes, how did you meet Jack Ruby?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I told you that in this. I met him in a restaurant.
Mr. PURDY. Approximately when?
Mr. McWILLIE. I would say 1951.
Mr. PURDY. Someone introduced you to him in a restaurant in
Dallas in 1951?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes sir.
Mr. PURDY. Do you remember who introduced you?
Mr. McWILLIE. He introduced himself to me.
Mr. PURDY. He just walked up to you?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I noticed him at the counter. We went into this restaurant every night to eat and three or four nights he was at the counter and staring at fellows and myself and I asked someone who he was and I don't know, one of them knew him or not, they said he had a night club or something. Anyway, about the third or fourth night when we got up to leave he walked over and introduced himself to me and I said nice to meet you and what do you want, Mr. Ruby? And, he went on to tell me about he was having trouble with his night club and had some kind of curfew put on him and I asked him, I said, Mr. Ruby, you are Jewish, aren't you, and he said, yes. I said well, there is a gentleman here in town by the name of Julius Schepps that might be able to help you, if there is nothing bad wrong with you, so I suggested that he go see Mr. Schepps, and he did, and he seemed to get his trouble straightened out.
Mr. PURDY. Mr. Schepps was able to help Jack Ruby?
Mr. McWILLIE. Evidently, because he didn't have any more trouble.
Mr. PURDY. What was the nature of your next few meetings with Jack Ruby. How did you happen to see him again after he came up and introduced himself?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, he called me on the phone and he thanked me and I met him back in the restaurant, and from then on he was just around me every time he got a chance he would be around.
Mr. PURDY. How would you characterize your relationship with Jack Ruby in the 1950's in Dallas?
Mr. McWILLIE. 1950's, I wasn't around him a real lot, you might say, he would come out to my apartment and swim in the pool and he was a kind of a leech, you might say.
Mr. PURDY. Kind of a leech?
Mr. McWILLIE. Leech. And he was just a hard fellow to get rid of.
Mr. PURDY. You say he came over uninvited?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, he came over uninvited after so long a time and he would hang around the pool everyday and swim and have dinner with me and different things.
Mr. PURDY. Did you ever have to ask him to leave?
Mr. McWILLIE. I don't recall. I could have. I don't recall it, though.
Mr. PURDY. Were you and Jack Ruby friends during the 1950's?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, we were friends.
Mr. PURDY. Were you aware that Jack Ruby considered you one of his closest friends?
Mr. McWILLIE. I would have to say so, yes, on account of the favors I had done him.
Mr. PURDY. What was the reason?
Mr. McWILLIE. The favors I have done him.
Mr. PURDY. So he liked you because you had done favors for him?
Mr. McWILLIE. I helped him.
Mr. PURDY. How had you helped him other than getting Mr. Julius Schepps to help him? Did you help him in any other way?
Mr. McWILLIE. I helped him with, he had a union problem, he called me in Las Vegas in the early part of 1963.
Mr. PURDY. We will go into that in more detail in a little while.
Mr. McWILLIE. All right.
Mr. PURDY. Were you aware that Jack Ruby included you on a list of people who might dislike him?
Mr. McWILLIE. He put me on a list of people that might dislike him?
Mr. PURDY. Yes.
Mr. McWILLIE. No, I am not.
Mr. PURDY. Was there any reason that you could think of that Jack Ruby might think that you disliked him?
Mr. McWILLIE. No way.
Mr. PURDY. Did Jack Ruby idolize you?
Mr. McWILLIE. In a sort of way I would think so, yes.
Mr. PURDY. Why did he idolize you?
Mr. McWILLIE. I guess because I had helped him keep his business open.
Mr. PURDY. What contacts, if any, did you have with Jack Ruby's family, friends and business associates?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I didn't even know his family or friends, I didn't know his family. He told me that he had a brother who was sick and his sister was ill, someway. He didn't elaborate.
Mr. PURDY. Did you have any mutual friends?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Sir?
Mr. PURDY. Did you have any mutual friends?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, we had friends, a friend named Meyer Panitz, and Jake Rifkin, they were good friends of his.
Mr. PURDY. They were also good friends of yours?
Mr. McWILLIE. Oh, yes, they were friends of mine in Memphis.
Mr. PURDY. Is there anyone else you can think of that was a friend of both you and Jack Ruby?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No, I don't. He probably knew everybody in town on account of this night club he had.
Mr. PURDY. Did you know a lot of people in Dallas also?
Mr. McWILLIE. Quite a few, yes.
Mr. PURDY. Other than what you have mentioned, did you do anything else with Jack Ruby, such as travel with him?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, no, never traveled with Jack Ruby.
Mr. PURDY. What knowledge do you have of Jack Ruby's possible involvement in any criminal activities?
Mr. McWILLIE. None whatever, sir.
Mr. PURDY. What is your opinion of Jack Ruby's personality? What kind of a man was he?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, Jack was a man that, he wanted to be a big man in the entertainment field, I would say, the biggest, and he was kind of an egotist, I guess, and I don't know.
Mr. PURDY. Was he a thoughtful man, was he a gentle man?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, he was, he was as far as I know.
Mr. PURDY. Was he ever a violent man?
Mr. McWILLIE. Not around me, no sir.
Mr. PURDY. Mr. McWillie, did you give a deposition to staff
members of this committee on April 4, 1978?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes sir.
Mr. PURDY. Mr. Chairman, I ask at this time that that deposition be entered into the record as JFK exhibit No. F-572.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, it will be admitted into the record at this point.
Mr. PURDY. Mr. Chairman, I also ask at this time that two FBI interviews of Mr. McWillie be entered into the record as JFK exhibits F-573 and F-574.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, they will be admitted into the record at this point.
[The above referred to JFK exhibits F-572, F-573, and F-574 follow:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-572
JFK EXHIBIT F-573
JFK EXHIBIT F-574

Mr. PURDY. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions at this time.
Mr. PREYER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Stokes to question the witness for such times as he may consume.
Chairman STOKES. Mr. McWillie, when did you first move toCuba?
Mr. McWILLIE. Sir?
Chairman STOKES. When did you first move to Cuba?
Mr. McWILLIE. I believe it was September 1968, I believe.
Chairman STOKES. How long was it before you obtained employment in Cuba?
Mr. McWILLIE. I had employment when I went to Cuba.
Chairman STOKES. And where were you employed in Cuba?
Mr. McWILLIE. The Tropicana Night Club.
Chairman STOKES. In what capacity?
Mr. McWILLIE. Casino manager.
Chairman STOKES. And who had arranged your employment when you went there?
Mr. McWILLIE. A fellow that I had met in Dallas. I don't remember exactly how I met him. He asked me about if I had been in the gambling business and I said yes, and he said, well, maybe I can get you something in Havana.Can you hear me, sir?
Chairman STOKES. Yes; I can.
Mr. McWILLIE. So, a week later I did hear from him and he hadasked me if I would like to manage the Tropicana. He thought he could get me a job there. I went over there and had a conferencewith the owners there and agreed to come back a week later, and then I went back to Dallas and returned to Havana.
Chairman STOKES. Who were the owners that you had the conference with?
Mr. McWILLIE. Owners of the Tropicana?
Chairman STOKES. Yes, sir.
Mr. MCWILLIE. There was a fellow named Martin Fox, Pedro Fox, Oscar Cheninder. That's all, the only ones I know. They are all Cubans.
Chairman STOKES. Were there any so-called silent partners?
Mr. McWILLIE. Silent partners?
Chairman STOKES. Yes, sir.
Mr. MCWILLIE. I wouldn't think so.
Chairman STOKES. How many other major casinos were in Cuba at that time?
Mr. McWILLIE. Let me see, I'd say six, maybe.
Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us the names of those casinos?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, the Riviera, the Capri, National, the Hilton. There was one down in old Havana. I don't really recall the name of it, but I do know the man's name who ran it, it was Batista. He wasn't any kin to----
Chairman STOKES. To the President?
Mr. McWILLIE. To the President.
Chairman STOKES. To others you just named for us, can you tell us who the owners were of those?
Mr. McWILLIE. I have no idea, sir, who they all are.
Chairman STOKES. Just the one you are aware of, besides Tropicana.
Mr. McWILLIE. Sir?
Chairman STOKES. Besides the Tropicana, you are just aware--
Mr. McWILLIE. That's the only one I was aware of.
Chairman STOKES. Are you aware of any individuals who might have had ownership interest in more than one casino?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir, no way I would know that.
Chairman STOKES. Did you know whether or not Santos Trafficante had an interest in any casino there?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir, I didn't.
Chairman STOKES. Did Jack Ruby know the Fox brothers that you just mentioned?
Mr. McWILLIE. Did he know what, sir?
Chairman STOKES. Did he know the Fox brothers?
Mr. McWILLIE. I think I introduced Jack to them when he came out to the place while he was there.
Chairman STOKES. But he didn't know them prior to your introducing them?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. I see. At some time, did you change jobs and move to the Capri Casino?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes; I did. I managed the Tropicana some time and then the government took it over and I was sent up there by Martin who said you can get a job up there; go up there.
Chairman STOKES. Who is Martin?
Mr. McWILLIE. He owned the Tropicana, Martin Fox.
Chairman STOKES. Then he sent you to the Capri; is that right?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Right.
Chairman STOKES. When was this?
Mr. McWILLIE. Either early 1960's or the late 1950's; I don't know which. I don't recall.
Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us who owned the Capri?
Mr. McWILLIE. No; I didn't know.
Chairman STOKES. Do yOU know whether or not Santos Trafficante had an interest in the Capri?
Mr. McWILLIE. If he did, I never did see him in there.
Chairman STOKES. If I said to you that the FBI files which this committee has gotten hold of in the case indicates that Santos Trafficante had substantial interest in the Capri, would your answer still be the same?
Mr. MCWILLIE. That he had a substantial interest in the Capri?
Chairman STOKES. Yes, sir.
Mr. MCWILLIE. I don't know about that, sir.
Chairman STOKES. You know nothing about it?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir. There would be no way I would know who owned the place.
Chairman STOKES. During the time you were in Cuba, can you tell us what was the relationship between the casino operators and the Cuban Government?
Mr. McWILLIE. None that I know of sir.
Chairman STOKES. Were there contacts between the casino owners and the government officials?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Not that I know of, sir. There would be no way I would know that. All I did was manage the casino; they didn't discuss their private business with me.
Chairman STOKES. Well, prior to Castro coming into power, are you aware of whether or not casino operators had to make payoffs to individuals in the government in order to remain in business?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir, I don't.
Chairman STOKES. In 1959, did individuals who had casino interests take special precautions to avoid confiscation of their assets by the government?
Mr. McWILLIE. Not that I know of.
Chairman STOKES. Well, isn't it true that you made trips to Miami?
Mr. McWILLIE. To take money for Fox-
Chairman STOKES. From Cuba to deposit money?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Explain that to us, tell us what you were doing.
Mr. MCWILLIE. They would ask me to, if I would go to Miami and deposit some money for them, and I would do it.
Chairman STOKES. By what you were doing, you were sort of running for them, is that right?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I was a casino manager, and if they wanted me to do that for them, I did it.
Chairman STOKES. The effect of what they were doing is they were getting their money out of Cuba into banks or deposit boxes here in the States, is that right?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Well, the money I took over there was--I took it to a teller and she put it in their account.
Chairman STOKES. In the bank?
Mr. MCWILLIE. In the bank; yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Was this for the Fox brothers?
Mr. McWILLIE. This was both the Fox brothers and Cheninder, too. Cheninder was one of the partners.
Chairman STOKES. Did you do it for anyone else?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. How about when you moved to the Capri, did you do it for anybody there?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Following the takeover by Castro, did a point come when some of the Americans living there were put in prison or otherwise detained?
Mr. McWILLIE. I think so; yes.
Chairman STOKES. Can you recall about when this was?
Mr. McWILLIE. Why, you say?
Chairman STOKES. NO; can you recall when this occurred?
Mr. MCWILLIE. When this occurred? Either the latter part of 1959 or the early part of 1960; I'm not sure.
Chairman STOKES. Were all Americans who had gambling interests there detained?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Do you know why some were detained and some were not?
Mr. McWILLIE. I never did know; no.
Chairman STOKES. And do you know where they were detained?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes; they were detained in two prisons, Principal and another one. I don't know the name of that one. That's the one they were detained in.
Chairman STOKES. Would that be Trescornia, a place called Trescornia?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I think that's the name of it; yes.
Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us the names of some of the people whom you know were detained?
Mr. McWILLIE. I didn't understand you.
Chairman STOKES. Are you having difficulty hearing me?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, sir; it is alright, I can hear you.
Chairman STOKES. Can you hear me now?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes.
Chairman STOKES. Can you give us the names of some of the people who were detained?
Mr. MCWILLIE. In this prison?
Chairman STOKES. Yes, sir.
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, Trafficante was in there, Jake Lansky, Dino Cellini, and a fellow named Guiseppe who worked in the Capri, had worked in there, and I don't recall anyone else.
Chairman STOKES. Was anyone from the Tropicana detained in there?
Mr. McWILLIE. Was anyone besides Tropicana?
Chairman STOKES. No; anyone from the Tropicana?
Mr. McWILLIE. From the Tropicana; no.
Chairman STOKES. How about the Fox brothers, were they detained?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us why they were not detained?
Mr. McWILLIE. I really couldn't tell you, sir. I don't know. I guess because they were Cubans, I don't know.
Chairman STOKES. Did you ever have occasion to visit Trescornia?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I went out there to see a fellow named Guiseppe. He had been a dealer around the Capri and he was a fanatic gambler, gambled his money away. He had a wife and a little kid. We used to give his wife, take up a collection and give his wife money so they could live. I did go out to see him once or twice. Chairman STOKES. What was his full name?
Mr. McWILLIE. I really don't remember it, sir. Guiseppe De something. I don't recall what it was. Guiseppe De George.
Chairman STOKES. I am sorry.
Mr. MCWILLIE. Guiseppe De George.
Chairman STOKES. De George.
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Do you recall how many times you went out there? I think you just said once or twice---
Mr. McWILLIE. I would say about twice.
Chairman STOKES. Do you recall the first time that you went there?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, I don't recall the date; no.
Chairman STOKES. Can you approximate the date for us?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I believe it was some time in 1959. I'm not positive though. Could have been early 1960's; I'm not sure.
Chairman STOKES. How about the second time you went back to visit De George?
Mr. MCWILLIE. It is possible I could have went back to see Dino the second time, but I'm not sure.
Chairman STOKES. To see who?
Mr. McWILLIE. Dino Cellini. He had been the manager of the Tropicana before Clark was there. And I became friendly with him and talked to him about casino work and different things. Its possible that I did go see him; I don't know.
Chairman STOKES. So that I understand your testimony properly, it is that you went there twice. You think it was late 1959 or early 1960, possibly. The first time you went to see De George. The second time you may have gone to see Cellini; is that correct?
Mr. MCWILLIE. It is possible that I went to see both of them.
Chairman STOKES. Can you tell us why De George was in Trescornia?
Mr. McWILLIE. They just picked him up like they did everybody else. I don't know why they picked him up.
Chairman STOKES. And what was your reason for going to see him?
Mr. MCWILLIE. See De George?
Chairman STOKES. Yes.
Mr. MCWILLIE. Because he had a wife and a child and we had been giving them money. I had rather, taken up a collection amongst the help to live on. I went out there to let him know they were being taken care of.
Chairman STOKES. Was Cellini in there the same time you went to see De George?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I think, I'm positive he was.
Chairman STOKES. Do you know what he was in for?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Why he was in there?
Chairman STOKES. Yes, sir.
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. How many people were in the same area where De George and Cellini were?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Quite a few people there, Cubans and Americans that I didn't know.
Chairman STOKES. Did they have them all housed together; that is, did they have the Americans----
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, it was a kind of a, I would say, a playroom where they all sat around and read and talked, whatever.
Chairman STOKES. Well, in the room where you visited them?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Can you describe that room for us?
Mr. McWILLIE. As I recall, it was just a large room, had chairs in it. It had a yard outside where they could walk around. It wasn't really a prison. They had a wire fence around it. But, I guess it was pretty well guarded.
Chairman STOKES. In this room where you visited with DeGeorge and Cellini, were other people visiting in the same room with prisoners?
Mr. McWILLIE. I don't recall, sir, I really don't know who was visiting. It could have been---
Chairman STOKES. Well, on your first trip, did you see both DeGeorge and Cellini?
Mr. McWILLIE. It seems to me like I did; yes. I said hello to Cellini; yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Is it your opinion that both of these men were imprisoned because of their gambling activities or for some other reason?
Mr. McWILLIE. I would have to think that they were trying, going to deport them, myself.
Chairman STOKES. And do you know why they were being deported.
Mr. McWILLIE. Castro was taking over the casinos. I would think that is one of his ways of doing things.
Chairman STOKES. And you think it would be in connection with -their gambling activities?
Mr. McWILLIE. I would think so; yes. Is it all right if I smoke?
Chairman STOKES. Certainly; help yourself. On your first visit there, can you tell us the names of some of the other prisoners you recall seeing there?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I recall seeing Trafficante. I recall seeing Jake Lansky, Dino Cellini, and Guiseppe.
Chairman STOKES. And did you have occasion to talk with any of them?
Mr. McWILLIE. I did talk to Cellini. I think Jake Lansky might have been there. I didn't talk to anyone--and De George--I didn't talk to Trafficante because I didn't know him that well, just to speak to him.
Chairman STOKES. But you did talk, you think, with Jake Lansky on that occasion?
Mr. McWILLIE. Just asked how he was, when he was going to get freed, and different things like that.
Chairman STOKES. You say you did not talk with Mr. Trafficante?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Did you know Mr. Trafficante?
Mr. McWILLIE. Just to see him.
Chairman STOKES. And how often would you have seen him?
Mr. McWILLIE. Oh, maybe every once in a while. It might be a month or so if I would see him. When I'd see him, I would say hello to him, and he would say hello to me.
Chairman STOKES. On your second visit out there, besides the two men that you have named, whom did you see on your second visit?
Mr. McWILLIE The same ones were in there.
Chairman STOKES. And can you tell us on that occasion how many of them you talked with?
Mr. McWILLIE. Just Guiseppe. I could have talked to Dino again just to say hello and pass the time of day.
Chairman STOKES. Did ou speak to Lansky?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, he's always with Dino. They were together.
Chairman STOKES. Do you recall speaking with Mr. Trafficante on that occasion?
Mr. McWILLIE. I didn't know Mr. Trafficante that well.
Chairman STOKES. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Trafficante?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Just to say hello.
Chairman STOKES. Do you recall when that was?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Sir.
Chairman STOKES. Do you recall when that was?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, I don't I'd see him numerous times around Havana.
Chairman STOKES. Do you recall whether you said hello to him in the prison on either one of those occasions?
Mr. McWILLIE. I probably said hello to him the second time I was there.
Chairman STOKES. Did you do anything else, shake hands with him or anything like that?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Probably just said hello.
Mr. MCWILLIE. That's all.
Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, at this time I ask that JFK exhibit F-436, which is a rough sketch of the layout of Trescornia, obtained during a committee trip to Cuba, be entered into the record.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-436 is entered into the record.
[The above referred to JFK exhibit F-436 follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-436

Chairman STOKES. Was someone in that prison by the name of Charles Tourine?
Mr. McWILLIE. Who?
Chairman STOKES. Charles Tourine?
Mr. McWILLIE. No; I don't know.
Chairman STOKES. You don't know anybody by that name? How about Charles Del Monico?
Mr. McWILLIE. Del Monico?
Chairman STOKES. Del Monico?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No.
Chairman STOKES. Lucian Rivard?
Mr. McWILLIE. Not that I know of.
Chairman STOKES. Jake Lansky was there; right?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Jake Lansky was there; right.
Chairman STOKES. How about Henry Savadra?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No.
Chairman STOKES. And Cellini was there?
Mr. McWILLIE. Cellini was there, yes, Eddie Cellini--I mean Dino.
Chairman STOKES. Now, on your two visits there, on either one of those visits, did either De George or Cellini or anyone else ask you to do anything for them outside of the prison?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Who went out to the prison with you?
Mr. McWILLIE. Who what, sir?
Chairman STOKES. Who went out there with you to the prison?
Mr. McWILLIE. Jack Ruby could have been out there one time with me. I don't think he was. I went out there, I think, by myself.
Chairman STOKES. Well, you said to us, you just said to us he could have gone out there with me.
Mr. McWILLIE. I don't know if he was there at that time or not. If he was, I could have taken him out there with me, yes. I'm not positive about it.
Chairman STOKES. Let's talk about Mr. Ruby a little bit. When was Mr. Ruby there?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Sir?
Chairman STOKES. When did Mr. Ruby come to Cuba?
Mr. McWILLIE. I don't know; it was August or September; I don't know.
Chairman STOKES. Of what year?
Mr. MCWILLIE. 1959.
Chairman STOKES. And tell us why he came to Cuba?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Well, he came over there--I tried to get Mr. Ruby to bring a columnist from Dallas over there in 1958, and so he didn't bring him, he couldn't bring him or something. I don't know what it was. In 1959, I called him again. I believe I called him or wrote him and asked him if he could possibly bring Tony Zoppi in. He said yeah, I will get him and bring him over here. I explained to him that his hotel bill and plane fare would be taken care of. In fact, I sent him two tickets; I am almost positive it was two tickets. When he came over there, he was by himself. He said, Tony couldn't come. I think he just more or less came over there to take a vacation. Course, I never heard from Tony again.
Chairman STOKES. So that we understand it, Jack Ruby came to Cuba at your invitation?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Yes, he did.
Chairman STOKES. And you are the one who sent him the tickets?
Mr. MCWILLIE. But he was supposed to bring Tony Zoppi, excolumnist.
Chairman STOKES. But instead of bringing Zoppi---
Mr. MCWILLIE. He came by himself; yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES. In order to try and get a better idea of when Ruby was there, what is your best recollection as to whether it was August or whether it was September or whether he came in August and left in September?
Mr. MCWILLIE. He was just there a week, 6 days, maybe.
Chairman STOKES. I am sorry.
Mr. MCWILLIE. Sir?
Chairman STOKES. I didn't hear you?
Mr. McWILLIE. He was there 6 days. I don't recall the exact date when he was there.
Chairman STOKES. Can you recall any holidays around that time?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No, no, I can't.
Chairman STOKES. Now, would it help refresh your recollection if we said to you that there are people who saw Ruby in Havana on September 5, September 6 and September 7? Would that help refresh your recollection.
Mr. MCWILLIE. That would be the time he was there then, if people saw him there.
Chairman STOKES. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would ask at this point that the following exhibits be entered into the record: JFK F-575, which is a segment of a letter written by Tony Zoppi; F-576, which is a committee interview with Mr. Zoppi; F-577, which is an FBI report of an interview with Jack Ruby; F-578, F-579, and F-580, which are statements of persons who saw Jack Ruby in Havana, Cuba; and finally F-582, which is an FBI report that further suggests that Ruby went to Cuba.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibits F-575 through
F-580, and F-582 are entered into the record at this point.
[The above referred to JFK exhibits F-575. through F-580 and F-582 follow:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-575
JFK EXHIBIT F-576
JFK EXHIBIT F-577
JFK EXHIBIT F-578
JFK EXHIBIT F-579
JFK EXHIBIT F-580
JFK EXHIBIT F-582

Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, I would also ask that JFK Exhibit F-581, which is a postcard written from Jack Ruby to Alice Nichols which is dated September 8, 1959, also be made a part and entered into the record at this point.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK F-581 is ordered into the record at this point.
[The above referred to JFK Exhibit F-581 follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-581

Chairman STOKES. Now, you have stated that it is your best recollection that he stayed there a week?
Mr. McWILLIE. I would say 6 days, not over 6 days.
Chairman SToKEs. Could he have stayed longer?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, I think I took him to the airport.
Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, I ask that JFK Exhibits F-583, and F-584, which are blowups, be exhibited at this time and also be made a part of the record at this point.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK Exhibits F-583 and F-584 are admitted into the record at this point.
[The above referred to JFK Exhibits F-583 and F-584 follow:]

Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, I ask that Mr. Howard Shapiro of our staff be permitted to approach the easel and explain to the witness what those exhibits are.

JFK EXHIBIT F-583
JFK EXHIBIT F-584

Mr. PREYER. The Chair recognizes Mr. Shapiro.
Mr. SHAPIRO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. These two exhibits are blowups of materials which the committee acquired from the Cuban Government earlier this year. What we have are two cards which indicate two visits.
Mr. PREYER. Just a moment, Mr. Shapiro. I don't believe your microphone is working.
Mr. SHAPIRO. Is it working now?
Mr. PREYER. Fine.
Mr. SHAPIRO. As I said, these exhibits are blowups of materials which the committee received from the Cuban Government earlier this year. We have two cards and we have a blowup of the front side and the back side of each card. The front side of the first card, the back side of the first card, the front side of the second card, the back side of the second card.
What these cards indicate are two visits to Cuba by Jack Ruby, and further they indicate the dates of those visits. The first card indicates that Jack Ruby entered Cuba on August 8, 1959, the date of entry being written in on the back of the card. The front of the card indicating that Jack Ruby left the United States from New Orleans.
The back of the card also indicates that Jack Ruby left cuba on this visit on September 11, 1959, therefore, the card indicating that Jack Ruby was in Cuba from August 8 to September 11, 1959.
The second card indicates that Jack Ruby entered Cuba on September 12, 1959, and left on the 13th of September 1959, and the front side of the card would indicate that his entry from the United States was from Miami, Fla.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman STOKES. OK. Mr McWillie, do you understand--
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes sir, I understand.
Chairman STOKES [continuing]. That gentleman's testimony?
Mr. McWiLLIE. Yes.
Chairman STOKES. Now, does that information help refresh your recollection, first, as to whether Jack Ruby came in August and left in September, and also whether he remained there over a period of 6 days?
Mr. McWILLIE. Sir, he stayed there 6 days, as far as I can remember. One .of them said September what to--to August to September, what date was that?
Chairman STOKES. August 8 was his entrance date, a departure date of the 11th--September 11.
Mr. McWILLIE. Oh, no, no, he wasn't there that long.
Chairman STOKES. He wasn't there that long?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. During the period of time that he was there, did he leave the country and come back again during that 6-dayperiod?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would ask that JFK exhibit F-588, which is a report confirming that the signatures "Jack Ruby" appearing on the two travel cards as well as thepost card to Alice Nichols, be entered into the record.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-588, is entered into the record at this point.
[The above referred to JFK exhibit F-588 follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-588

Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, in addition to the other exhibits, I would like to have entered into the record an FBI report dated November 29, 1969, concerning the records of the Merchant State Bank in Dallas as they pertain to Jack Ruby. This exhibit should be marked JFK exhibit f-585.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit f-585, is entered into the record at this point.
[The above referred to JFK exhibit F-585 follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-585

Chairman STOKES. That exhibit will reflect information concerning Jack Ruby's use of safety deposit box No. 448. Among other dates listed, that exhibit will indicate that Jack Ruby was admitted to the safety deposit box on August 20, 1959, and September 4, 1959.
Mr. Chairman, I would also like to enter into the record at this point the FBI report by Agent Charles Flynn, which is the FBI'S record of the status of Jack Ruby as a potential criminal informant. I would like to have this record entered into evidence as JFK exhibit F-586.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-586 is entered into the record at this point.
[The above referred to JFK exhibit F-586 follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-586

Chairman STOKES. I would also have the committee know that this exhibit will point out the fact that the record indicates that Charles Flynn, the FBI agent, had personal contact with Jack Ruby in Dallas, Tex. on August 6 and on August 31 of 1959. In summary, what these records will tend to indicate is that Jack Ruby was in Dallas, Tex. on August 6, August 21, August 31, and September 4, 1959. Therefore, if the Cuban records are correct, Jack Ruby was in Havana, Cuba, on August 8, 1959; he must have left Cuba and returned to Dallas and traveled to Cuba again prior to the September 11 departure date that has been mentioned earlier.Now, Mr. McWillie, if Mr. Ruby made a 1-day trip in and out of the country, would you be able to tell us what that trip was about?
Mr. McWILLIE. If he did make a trip I would not know it, sir; and I would think I would know it, and I didn't see Jack Ruby after he left that one time.
Chairman STOKES. Now, tell us what the two of you did in Cuba
during that 6-day period together?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I worked every night, and as a rule he would hang around the casino. Maybe once or twice he might have gone to see a show or something, but he was around me nearly all the time.
Chairman STOKES. But during the day what would the two of you do?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I was working at night and I slept most of the day. If he got up early or not I wouldn't know. He would usually meet me out at the casino after I had gone and opened up.
Chairman STOKES. What time did you go to the casino in the evening?
Mr. McWILLIE. I think about 8 o'clock.
Chairman STOKES. And how late would you work?
Mr. McWILLIE. Sometimes 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning.
Chairman STOKES. And you say he would hang around you out at the casino?
Mr. McWILLIE. Yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES. And during that period of time, he didn't smoke or drink, did he?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir, he didn't.
hairman STOKES. But he would just stand around; is that it?
Mr. McWILLIE. Stand around talking to people and carrying on conversations.
Chairman STOKES. Did he know other people there?
Mr. McWILLIE. Sir?
Chairman STOKES. Did he know other people there?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, he didn't know anyone there.
Chairman STOKES. You were the only person he knew in Havana?
Mr. McWILLIE. He knew Panitz. I think Panitz was there at the time, too, Meyer Panitz from Memphis; he knew him, he was from Dallas, too.
Chairman STOKES. Was Panitz there during that period of time?
Mr. McWILLIE. Pardon me, I am almost positive that he was.
Chairman STOKES. That he was?
Mr. McWILLIE. That he was working in Havana.
Chairman STOKES. What type of work did Panitz do?
Mr. McWILLIE. He was a casino worker.
Chairman STOKES. And for which casino?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I think he worked at the Capri.
Chairman STOKES. Now, did I understand you to say earlier that you took Ruby back to the airport?
Mr. McWILLIE. I am sure I did, yes, sir; I would do that, yes, sir.
Chairman STOKES. And where was he going when he left?
Mr. McWILLIE. He was going back home, he said, to Dallas.
Chairman STOKES. And do you know whether or not he did go back home to Dallas?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I would have to say he did. There was no way I would know but I would have to say he did go back to Dallas.
Chairman STOKES. Now, you have told us that Panitz was in Havana at the same time you and Ruby were there?
Mr. McWILLIE. I would have to say so, yes.
Chairman STOKES. Is it possible that Panitz was not there and that he was in Miami and that you called him?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, I don't think so.
Chairman STOKES. Mr. Chairman, I ask that an exhibit marked JFK F-587, which is an interview with Meyer Panitz, be entered into and made a part of the record at this point.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-587 is ordered into
the record at this point.[The above referred to JFK exhibit F-587 follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-587

Chairman STOKES. Would counsel hand me that exhibit?
Mr. McWILLIE. This exhibit is an FBI interview of Meyer Panitz in which Panitz says that he had known McWillie from Dallas, Tex. Panitz says he contacted Ruby at Wolfie's Restaurant at Twentyfirst Street and Collins, Miami Beach, Fla. Panitz believes Ruby was in Miami Beach 2 or 3 days and visited with Ruby on two occasions. Panitz recalls Ruby said he had been in Cuba on a pleasure trip and was returning to Dallas, Tex.Panitz does not recall the hotel room Ruby stayed in while in Miami Beach. Panitz does not recall the month he saw Ruby but is somewhat certain it was in the summer of 1959. Panitz had no knowledge of possible Cuban connections on the part of Ruby but that, he says Panitz received a phone call from McWillie and McWillie was then working in Cuba.McWillie advised Panitz that Jack Ruby had visited him in Cuba and was then in Miami Beach.Having heard what Mr. Panitz told the FBI about your calling him, would you now change your statement that Panitz was then
Mr. MCWILLIE. I thought he was in Cuba. I didn't know he was in Miami. I thought that Panitz was in Cuba because I know he worked there.
Chairman STOKES. What then would have been your reason for calling Panitz and letting him know that Jack Ruby was going to be there?
Mr. MCWILLIE. If I called Panitz, I don't recall it. I don't recall a conversation with Panitz in Miami.
Chairman STOKES. You don't recall having called Panitz?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir; I do not.
Chairman STOKES. This doesn't refresh your recollection either?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir. I thought Panitz was in Havana when Ruby was over there, and I still think he was.
Chairman STOKES. Did Ruby carry anything to Panitz for you?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Did he carry anything to Panitz?
Chairman STOKES. To Panitz for you?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir.
Chairman STOKES. Now, you have told us that, to the best of your recollection, you cannot recall Jack Ruby leaving the country and coming back in again?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No, sir. No, I never saw him again after he left Cuba.
Chairman STOKES. Now, I ask again, Mr. Chairman, that we direct the witness' attention to JFK exhibits F-583 and F-584 which have. been referred to earlier.
Mr. McWillie, I would direct your attention to the left-hand card of JFK exhibit F-584, which indicates that Jack Ruby left Havana on September 11, 1959. I also direct your attention to the card on the right which is the back side of the card showing at the bottom of the photographic blowup of JFK exhibit F-583, which indicates that Jack Ruby entered Cuba on September 12, 1959, left again on September 13, 1959. The front side of that card shows that on that trip that Jack Ruby had come from Miami, therefore, the two cards taken together show that Jack Ruby left Cuba on September 11, 1959, that he went to Miami, returned to Cuba on September 12, and then going on to New Orleans on September 13. In addition to that, the committee has a letter here from Immigration Service which was sent to this committee, which confirms the fact that Jack Ruby left Cuba on September 11, 1959, went to Miami, returning on September 12 and going on to New Orleans on September 13.
Mr. Chairman, I would like this letter from INS entered into the record at this time as JFK exhibit F-589.
Mr. PREYER. Without objection, JFK exhibit F-589 is entered into the record at this time.
[The above referred to JFK exhibit F-589 follows:]

JFK EXHIBIT F-589

Chairman STOKES. Now, Mr. McWillie, let me ask you, in light of this additional documentation with reference to Mr. Ruby's trips, does this in any way refresh your recollection?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I think you said, sir, that, didn't you say that he came in on the 5th of August and left on the 11th? Did you say that?
Chairman STOKES. On the 8th was the original trip, the document shows.
Mr. McWILLIE. From the 5th to the 11th? That was 6 days. That is the only time that I have seen Jack Ruby in Cuba. I thought when he left there he went right straight home to Dallas. I had no idea why he went to New Orleans.
Chairman STOKES. You have no knowledge of such trip?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir; none whatever.
Mr. SAWYER. Would you yield?
Chairman STOKES. Yes.
Mr. SAWYER. I think there is confusion. He said arrived on the 8th and left on the 11th. It was the 8th of August and he left on the 11th of September, so it was not 6 days as the witness----
Mr. MCWILLIE. I thought the first time you said it, he got there the 6th of August and left on the 11th of August. You didn't say that?
Chairman STOKES. Sir, we will try and clear it up. Mr. Shapiro, would you again approach the easel?
Mr. MCWILLIE. Because I know for a fact he wasn't there over 6 days when he visited me.
Chairman STOKES. We will have the---
Mr. McWILLIE. I couldn't have stood it that long.
Chairman STOKES. We will have the gentleman try to clear it up. [Laughter.]
Mr. Shapiro.
Mr. SHAPIRO. These cards here indicate a trip on Jack Ruby entering Cuba on August 8, 1959, and leaving on September 11. Therefore, the card indicates that Jack Ruby was there for a period of 1 month and 3 days.
Mr. McWILLIE. No way, he wasn't there not over 6 days. I took him to the airport.
Chairman STOKES. Mr. McWillie, does that clear it up?
Mr. MCWILLIE. That is clear all right but that is not right, because when he came to visit me he stayed 6 days at the most, he stayed 6 days and there is some foulup with that ticket or something, If he had stayed there a month, I would say a month, I wouldn't be ashamed to say it. Jack Ruby was the kind of fellow that 6 days would be long enough to be around him. I am sure he wasn't there a month. [Laughter.]
Chairman STOKES. You are pretty sure then?
Mr. MCWILLIE. I am not trying to be smart, sir.
Chairman STOKES. I understand.
Mr. McWILLIE. I am telling it like it is.
Chairman STOKES. Did you ever ask Mr. Ruby to get you four guns from Ray Brentley's gun store and send them to you in Cuba?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir; I have been asked that a dozen times and I didn't do that. In the first place, Jack Ruby couldn't have sent any guns to Cuba and I couldn't have gotten them in Cuba. If I had, I hate to think what would have happened to me.
Chairman STOKES. You have been asked about this a dozen times, you say. You are aware then that Jack Ruby gave this testimony to the Warren Commission?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, I am not aware he gave the testimony. But I have been asked by reporters and magazine writers and different people.
Chairman STOKES. Now----
Mr. McWILLIE. I'm trying to think--now, who else asked me that?
Chairman STOKES. Here is Jack Ruby's testimony to the Warren Commission, volume 5, page 201, says that you had called Jack Ruby from Cuba, asking him to pick up four Cobra pistols at Ray Brentley's hardware store and send to you. According to Jack Ruby, you were concerned about the new regime coming in, you wanted some protection. Your testimony is that this never happened?
Mr. McWILLIE. This never happened, sir, and there is no way I could call Jack Ruby and ask him to send guns over there because every call was monitored in Havana, every call, and I would hate to get caught with a gun in Cuba when I was there.
Chairman STOKES. How about Las Vegas?
Mr. McWILLIE. He sent me a gun there, yes, and I didn't take it out.
Chairman STOKES. Sir? Pardon me.
Mr. McWILLIE. I called him. They were having a lot of holdups there. I was working on the late shift. I would get up at 2 o'clock in the morning and get off at 10 and the holdup men had beaten several fellows up because they didn't have enough money for them, and so I called Jack and asked Jack to send me a gun out there, and in the meantime my kids were small and my wife wouldn't let me take the gun out and so it went back.
Chairman STOKES. So you never picked up the gun that he sent you?
Mr. MCWILLIE. No, I never did.
Chairman STOKES. Did he get that gun from Ray Brentley's?
Mr. McWILLIE. Sir?
Chairman STOKES. Did he get that gun from Ray Brentley's?
Mr. McWILLIE. I think he did, yes.
Chairman STOKES. Thank you. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman. I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. PREYER. Thank you.Are there any further questions from the members of the panel?
Mr. FITHIAN. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. PREYER. Mr. Fithian.
Mr. FITHIAN. If I may have just 1 minute with the chief counsel before proceeding.
[A brief recess was taken.]
Mr. PREYER. Mr. Fithian is recognized.
Mr. FITHIAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. After you left Cuba what was your relationship with Jack Ruby, Mr. McWillie?
Mr. McWILLIE. After I left Cuba, I stayed in Miami at my mother's home until about the 1st of June, and I drove from Miami to Las Vegas. I had a job at the Cal-Neva Lodge in Lake Tahoe, Nev. When I got to Dallas, I stayed overnight with Jack Ruby. Got up, oh, I got in there about nine and got up at five in the morning and left. I drove on up to Cal-Neva Lodge and went to work there on the 15th and then I went to, after that was over in September, I went down to Reno and was assistant manager at the Riverside Hotel. During the period I was there, I think I got a couple letters from Jack Ruby telling me about a new place he had and how nice it was and this and that. He sent me some razor blades that just came out. He seemed to be very proud of these blades, and he was going to get a distributorship for them. I may have gotten two letters from him, I don't know.
Mr. FITHIAN. So now, what you are saying is after you got back to the United States, you stayed overnight with Jack Ruby, you received a couple letters from him while you were in Reno and that he, upon your request, sent you a gun in Las Vegas, which you did not pick up.
Mr. McWILLIE. This was later on, sir, this was later on after I left Reno. I left Reno in--let me see, right before Christmas in 1962, I took my family and we drove to Miami and visited with my mother, and then I came back to Vegas and went to work at the-are you ready, sir?
Mr. FITHIAN. Yes.
Mr. MCWILLIE. I came back to Vegas and went to work at the Thunderbird Hotel, I believe, in February, the early part of February 1963.
Mr. FITHIAN. Did you have any other personal contact with Jack Ruby--
Mr. MCWILLIE. I'm getting to that now, sir.
Mr. FITHIAN. OK.
Mr. McWILLIE. Then after I was there a while, I got a call from Jack Ruby that he was having trouble with a union named the AGVA. He wanted to know if I knew anybody who knew the president of the union. It just so happened that I knew, a friend of mine named Bill Miller was entertainment director for the Hilton Hotel, I think it was. I called Bill. I managed a casino for him in Reno. In the meantime, he left and went to Vegas, and I called Bill and I said, Bill, I have a friend of mine in Dallas who has some trouble with the AGVA, it is some kind of an entertainment union. I said he wants to know if you know if I know anyone who knows the president, and I am calling you on account of that and if you could help him, I would appreciate it.I didn't hear any more from Bill Miller, but a couple days later, the next day maybe, I got a call from Ruby. He was just thanking me overwhelmingly. Well, he must have called me five or six times during that period thanking me for getting this straightened out for him. It must have been a minor thing; I don't know.
Mr. FITHIAN. Let me see if I understand you correctly. He called once to ask if you could help out with the American Guild of variety Actors problem, and you made a call to Bill Culler, did you say?
Mr. McWILLIE. Bill Miller.
Mr. FITHIAN. Miller.
Mr. MCWILLIE. He called me from Dallas.
Mr. FITHIAN. And you made one call and then dismissed it from your mind and then for five or six or seven additional calls, Ruby called you to----
Mr. McWILLIE. He called me every day for 4 or 5 days after that thanking me every time. I finally told him, I said, Jack, forget it. I said, I just did you a favor. I'd do it for anybody, and then that was it.
Mr. FITHIAN. Did he know in advance that you had this connection that could do him some good? I am curious as to why he called you on a labor matter.
Mr. McWILLIE. I don't really know, sir. He just probably thought I could help him with it. I don't know why he thought that, but he called me anyway.
Mr. FITHIAN. Did anyone else ever tell you or did you ever learn that Jack Ruby had contacted other people in regard to the AGVA dispute, the labor dispute?
Mr. McWILLIE. No. sir. He had contacted other people? If he did, he didn't tell me.
Mr. FITHIAN. Did anyone else that Jack contacted contact you and let you know that Jack was having this problem?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, no. The only time I ever heard of it was when he called me.
Mr. FITHIAN. The only input you had or the only indication you had of the labor problem was a single phone call from Jack Ruby?
Mr. McWILLIE. That's right, and I told him that I didn't know who the president was, but I thought I knew a man that would know. Incidentally, this man was a very good friend of mine and he got very upset about it, about me having Ruby call him and what happened. I told him, I said, well, I didn't know he was that kind of a fellow which I didn't.
Mr. FITHIAN. What was your reaction when you learned that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, I tell you, like I said I was working late at night and I was in my bedroom asleep and my wife had a radio or a TV in the kitchen. She came running in the room waking me up. She said, "My gosh, come in the kitchen, she said, someone just shot Oswald," and jokingly I said, "I hope its no one I know." We went in the kitchen and the announcer said a man named Segal had shot him. I said, "Well, I don't know him," laughing. All of a sudden, they said, "We made a mistake, it was a man named Jack Ruby." I said, "Oh my God, I know this man, my goodness." I told my wife, well, now, the FBI will be out here. Sure enough, in about 3 hours, the FBI came out.
Mr. FITHIAN. Besides your wife and the three FBI agents, who were the other people you talked to, after Ruby shot Oswald, about this, about the fact. you knew Ruby and he had shot Oswald?
Mr. McWILLIE. Well, several people brought it up that I knew him. I don't know who they were. I said isn't this an awful thing to know someone like this and have to go through all this problem over nothing? That's about the only thing I ever said. It has been an ordeal for 15 years.
Mr. FITHIAN. Mr. McWillie, in your deposition to the committee, you indicate that you participated in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, is that correct?
Mr. McWILLIE. Sir?
Mr. FITHIAN. You indicated in your deposition to the committee, I believe, that you participated in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, is that correct?
Mr. McWILLIE. Before I left here, I was going to get that straightened out. It is on page 221, I think, of paragraph 11 or 12; is that right? Do you have it in front of you?
Mr. FITHIAN. I believe you are correct in your citation.
Mr. McWILLIE. Sir?
Mr. FITHIAN. I believe you are correct in your citation.
Mr. McWILLIE. Do you want me to read it to you?
Mr. FITHIAN. I will be happy to have you straighten it out, if you can.
Mr. McWILLIE. I think it is page 121. It says "Subsequent to your returning to the United States----"
Mr. FITHIAN. Could you just get the microphone a little closer? Thank you.
Mr. McWILLIE. It says, "Subsequent to your returning to the United States, you were involved in an incident at Miami Airport, is that correct?"Subsequent, that means after I left Cuba; right?
Mr. FITHIAN. Right.
Mr. McWILLIE. And I answered, "That's right.""Is it fair to characterize you as anti-Castro?" And the answer here is, which is untrue, "I was in an outfit called Fair Play for Cuba. I am not proud of it. But, I was just mad."I think they got that mixed up. The fellow I had the altercation with was with the Fair Play, an organization named the Fair Play for Cuba. Could that be taken out of this record because I didn't say that I was with the Fair Play--
Mr. FITHIAN. I believe I have been informed by the staff that the "he" in the transcript when it got transcribed was attributed to you and actually it was the person with whom you had some differences--we will correct the record.
Mr. MCWILLIE. Will this be changed?
Mr. PREYER. Your explanation will be made a part of the record and the record will be corrected.
Mr. McWILLIE. It will be changed. Thank you, sir.
Mr. FITHIAN. I just have one other quick area to explore and then I will be done.
Mr. McWillie, do you know Earl Ruby?
Mr. McWILLIE. Earl Ruby. I don't know him intimately. I have seen him a couple times.
Mr. FITHIAN. When did you meet him?
Mr. McWILLIE. I met him about 7 or 8 months ago. He came by the place where I worked and I looked around and there was a little fellow walking in the pit, we call it the pit. He walked up to me and he says, are you McWillie? I said yes, I am. And he said, well, I'm Earl Ruby. Well, I like to fell out when he told me he was Earl Ruby, but I had never seen him before in my life and that was the last person in the world I wanted to see. I said--he said, I am here, I'm making a documentary for one of the networks--NBC or one of them--and how have you been and this and that. I finally told him, I said, Earl, if you don't mind, would you just get out of here and let me alone. I have had enough problems knowing your brother, and I don't want any more problems.
Mr. FITHIAN. And is that the only time you met Earl Ruby then?
Mr. McWILLIE. That's the only time I ever met him, yes.
Mr. FITHIAN. Did Jack ever mention his brother, Earl, to you to 1959?
Mr. McWILLIE. Did he ever mention him to me?
Mr. FITHIAN. Yes.
Mr. McWILLIE. The best I remember it, he had a brother named Sam, I believe. I'm not positive. But, I am sure he had two brothers. He was a little skinny fellow and was ill in some way. He had a sister and he told me that she was ill. He never explained it, I don't know what illness she had or they both had.
Mr. FITHIAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have no further questions. Mr. PREYER. Are there any further questions from the panel? If not, Mr. McWillie, under the rules of the committee, when the questioning of a witness is completed, the witness has the right to take 5 minutes to explain anything about his testimony that he wishes to explain or to clarify or to just tell the committee anything he wants to. Is there anything further that you would like to say to the committee? If so, you will be recognized at this time.
Mr. McWILLIE. Here is a question on page 121. "Subsequent to your return to the United States, were you ever approached by individuals regarding assassinating Castro?" And it took me by surprise and I said, Oh, my God, no, because I never was there. This was the last question that was asked me as I was getting ready to leave the room, if Mr. Purdy will recall, as I was putting my coat on, I got up and was going out to leave, I am sure that he asked me this question and it was so absurd that I--it astounded me because I wouldn't assassinate a flea.
Mr. PREYER. Do you wish to make any further comment on your answer to that question?
Mr. McWILLIE. What, sir?
Mr. PREYER. Do you wish to say anything further about that question at this time?
Mr. McWILLIE. Sir, I can't hear you. I'm sorry.
Mr. PREYER. Do you wish to add to your answer at this time anything further you want to say about that?
Mr. McWILLIE. No, sir.
Mr. PREYER. Do you have any other comments that you wish to make, Mr. McWillie, on anything?
Mr. McWILLIE. On anything pertaining to this thing?
Mr. PREYER. Yes.
Mr. McWILLIE. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. PREYER. All right. Thank you. If there are no further questions, Mr. McWillie, you will be excused at this time. Thank you for being with us.
[Witness excused.]
Mr. PREYER. The Chair will recognize Mr. Blakey. You are excused at this time, Mr. McWillie.
Mr. McWILLIE. Congressman, am I free to go back home?
Mr. PREYER. You are free to go, Mr. McWillie. Thank you.
Mr. McWILLIE. I'm sorry I could not hear you any better than did.